Taxi Driver Online

Below are extracts from several e-mails exchanged between TDO and Jim Taylor of Cabforce, an Edinburgh based representative group.

It was agree that we would continure the discussion on here and allow everyone to contribute.

Any removal of licence quotas will lead to me scanning the situations vacant columns.

Here in Edinburgh we've witness the Council increasing numbers by 25% over four years, while private hire numbers have doubled.

The effect has been disastrous with earnings seriously affected.

What those who would like this restriction lifted fail to realise is that unlimited numbers causes earnings to drop and more hours need to be worked to compensate, leading to compromised passenger safety as drivers ignore tiredness in pursuit of their income targets.

I wish those who would make these decisions were forced to work the trade before giving us the benefit of the flawed wisdom.

Obviously there are several conflicting interests within the trade. Clearly you do not want more plates issued, while there are presumably drivers who would like to have their own plate, and awarding such a driver a plate would not necessarily affect a basic measure of income such as hourly takings, assuming the driver continued to work the same hours.

On the other hand, it's not that long since it was proposed to dilute the knowledge test in Edinburgh to increase the number of drivers coming into the trade, which would be of no benefit to the majority of drivers, whose earnings would suffer as a consequence.

You said, "Clearly you do not want more plates issued, while there are presumably drivers who would like to have their own plate, and awarding such a driver a plate would not necessarily affect a basic measure of income such as hourly takings, assuming the driver continued to work the same hours."

Of course drivers of new plates in such circumstances do not work the same hours. Encouraged to buy expensive new vehicles, up to and beyond, and to finance a radio position the hours worked need to be increased to satisfy the new investments (debts) that have been taken on.

There is also the scenario where a new plate having been issued, free, by the council it is immediately sold on, meaning that the owner who is ultimately working it now has to finance an additional debt of what is rapidly becoming 000 and rising.

The nett effect is that there are more triers than ever before. Taxis working longer into the wee small hours striving to meet these commitments. Doesn't this represent a growing hazard to public safety?

There is a mistaken belief that taxis can be worked single-shifted. This is the domain of suppliers who have bangers in the fleet. A vehicle of any reasonable quality needs at least two shifts working it, with probably a part time driver working a Friday or Saturday to put cream on the cake.

Sadly, we do not have enough drivers in the trade for this scenario. And, when you see the amateurish way the knowledge test is designed, it's not difficult to see why. But, that's another issue.

In response to some of yours points above, Jim:

HOURS OF NEW PLATE HOLDERS

You imply that drivers of new plates would work more hours. This may be the case with some, but it seems unlikely that drivers would apply for a plate and intend investing in a vehicle in order that they could work more hours. This scenario seems even more unlikely insofar as people in Edinburgh seem willing to invest in a plate, and presumably all don't do this for the dubious privilege of working longer hours. In any case, if there is such concern about new plate holders working longer hours then presumably the artificial investment in a plate should be considered the prime culprit??

NEW PLATES SOLD ON

You allude to the latter point made above when you criticise the immediate selling on of new plates. From the point of view of the purchaser, whether the plate has been held for ten minutes or ten years is of no relevance, and there seems to be a contradiction between your point here and your policy of opposing new plate issues, which is the cause of plate values in the first place and the current rises in value that you mention.

As for the selling of newly issued plates, it does seem inequitable for new
plates to be sold on immediately, but then again any value is dependent on the closed market, so if the seller has held the plate for 20 years (say) then the gain is also unearned, assuming the plate was a 'freebie'.

Another point is that it seems that in Scotland the legislation was never
intended to facilitate the sale of plates, and that the corporate license vehicle utilised in Edinburgh and elsewhere amounts to something of a 'scam'. Indeed it seems that other local authorities in Scotland have expressed the view that these licenses might not withstand a legal challenge. There are one or two other apparently dubious aspects to this issue, but it might well be a good idea to see of the OFT report has anything to say on the issue before going into this any further.

DOUBLE SHIFTING etc

Yes, a taxi worked more hours per week will be more economically efficient, but the point is perhaps that this should be left to the market and driver choice, not compelled on the say-so of government, which seems to hark back to feudal times and not a modern market economy.

No one intends to work more hours. But a new taxi, plate and radio position is a hungry master. Limited number of drivers, extra work becomes an unforeseen necessity, at least in the early stages. Not a problem when you're new and keen, but later ..... ?

The now grand plate seems almost certainly a fabrication of those commission based market makers, who are known to be holding plates back to up the ante. You don't believe this? Trust me! It is happening.

I don't oppose new plate issues per se. I do oppose them being issued for the wrong reasons and at the wrong time. Our Council is eager to dispense with the waiting list, and all the legal hassles it causes. The time is wrong because the market for our trade is crap. I am doing 31 jobs on a Friday, my rental shift, when I used to do 42. The recent 15% hike in fares probably caused this and, realistically, is probably what is compensating me for doing the less work it caused.

Selling free plates on is interesting. The rumour mill suggests that the Inland Revenue is biding its time to hit all the plate transferers with a bill for undeclared capital gains tax on their transactions.

The whole aspect of plate transfer in Scotland is one which has been encourage by local authorities. Because it is not simply a sale transfer situation, the Council can step in and make merry on the fees it charges for the privilege. Edinburgh has a licensing budget surplus of ,000. So why are its fees so high?


Double shifting is economic necessity, not something imposed by government. But Edinburgh has a shortage of drivers. So, why did the Council, inspired by corrupt vested interests, institute a useless, crap college course which is a disincentive to become a cabbie.

The answer: Because it was thought to be a "dripping roast". Let's be quite clear. Cabforce stopped it.

The biggest issue is the 'drivers' as a unit being organised enough to ensure between them they provide a service.

This means measures to ensure that enough are out on the road on a Saturday evening. That they don't all go on holiday at the same time in September.

A couple of years back my dear old lady arrived at a major station in the north and had to wait 1 and a half hours for a taxi on the rank. When she moaned at a station worker she was told 'its society day love, it always happens'. My Mum got all excited thinking some big 'society day' event was happening in the town. When she discovered that 'society day' was when half the hacks who covered the station abandoned their customers and went off and played golf all day she was well peeeved.

What you mean that the gains haven't been declared??

Oh dear!

It won't just be the free plates Jim, any plate sold at a profit will be subject to CGT. Of course, with the indexation allowance available (which basically allows for inflation) and the annual allowance for capital gains it's probable that few would have any significant tax liability, if any at all.

Dusty

The thing is Jim, are you saying that all those Private Hire vehicles are earning a pittance?

I doubt they are, or they would be working in another trade, or scanning the situations vacant columns themselves.

If the PH trade has doubled in the last four years, they must have taken some work from the taxi trade. Now if the taxi trade was de-limited, it would be far more responsive to customer needs, and those customers wouldn't need the services of so many PH vehicles.

Yes Jim, but isn't it the case that the legislation was never intended to allow for transfers in the first place, presumably because it was considered that someone getting a plate for nothing shouldn't be allowed to milk later market entrants for thousands?

But some LAs and the vested interests in the trade conspired to concoct these corporate licenses, thus rendering an untransferable asset sellable for £20,000.

If a transferor is allowed to sell this plate for £20,000, then isn't it a bit hypocritical to castigate councils for having a bit of this (only a few hundred pounds I believe) since they went out of their way to facilitate this in the first place.

Hopefully this will be one area that the Office of Fair Trading will have been having a close look at.

CC

The council and the vested interests holding back plates to up the ante?? Yes, that's what it's all about, plates would have no value without this - I thought you wanted plates 'held back', or at least that's what you seem to be saying further down your post.

Or are you talking about something else??

Dusty

So you want more drivers into the trade even though you are complaining about less work??

Looks to me like the usual 'do as I say, not as I do' self-interest Jim - too many taxis, but not enough drivers!!!

Dusty

Again I can't really understand this Jim. You want more drivers into the trade, but you don't agree to them having the right to run their own vehicle. So surely greater utilisation of cars IS imposed by government?

You complain about not getting enough jobs further up the thread, but dislike a course because it's a disincentive to becoming a cabbie???

Double shifting is not an economic necessity, I'll be there are plenty single-shifted cabs in Edinburgh, as elsewhere.

However, as mentioned earlier, having as many drivers to each cab as possible IS in the interests of plateholders, that's what it's all about really.

If anything is an economic necessity, then the market can work it out, without you and Edinburgh City Council telling drivers what to do.

Anyway, any point made about "economic necessity" as regards running a cab seems somewhat fallacious when people are willing to pay £20k in Edinburgh for the privilege of doing so.

Dusty

she was peeved?
you want to see the state of the golf course it has many new bunkers.

Wharfie

Jim,
Much respect, I hesitate to take part in this debate, beccause my former home, taxiandprivatehire bar people who speak against taxi drivers sitting on premiums because they get upset, they call it "abuse"

As a former chairman of a metropolitain council in The north I am going to explain in detail why you cannot succeed in these arguments youve put forward and conversly the arguments that can succeed.

First of all your council cannot do as it wishes not only must it follow the law but it also has to give reasons for its decisions.

Seccondaly any councillor who does as you ask, tries it at taxi driving must first have a license if they have a licence the law says they must "declare a pecunary interest and leave the room and must take no part in the debate or vote" so jim you are on a loser already.

Now what is the reason for limiting by numbers? the reason is that at the start of taxi licensing drivers had a habit of leaving thier carriages whilst they frequented places of entertainmet, in such cases constables and enforcement officers had to drive the carriages away.

This caused problems as they had to stable the horses, and feed and water them, so the only lawful reasons a council can limit by numbers is on enforcement grounds.

If you stood before a judge or sherrif you would be laughed at, the law does not allow anybodys earnings to be protected in the way you advocate.

then arguments that they would have to work longer hours well if the Selby Rail crash tells us anything its that, that is unlawfull to and very irresponsible.

No Jim your council are ACTING UNLAWFULLY BY ACCEPTING YOUR ARGUMENT, and there is no two ways about it.

so what can be done to limit the trade?

many trades have to pass exams thats lawfull, to work on a rubbish tip these days you need a degree! so you can have knowledge tests.

you can have tough specifications on vehicles and tough tests, thats protection of the public.

you can also limit by numbers on enforcement grounds.

"We want Edingborogh as the capital of Scotland to have in force tough regimes of enforcement to protect its citizens and the visitors to this great city, by having good ratios of enforcement officers to the number of cabs"

"We wish to ensure there is maintained by regular checks good quality and well maintained vehicles to this end we think the council should maintain an equlibrium of taxis in the market,"

are but 2 arguments that are sound.

the pay of taxidrivers has nothing to do with the council (no matter what Halcrow Fox may say about exess profits) if you earn £50 per week does not mean you should have a tarrif rise if you earn £1,000 does not mean you shouldnt, its nothing to do with the council.

You have been very bitter about your councillors not understanding your trade, jim, with the arguments you have put forward its you that does not understand the trade.

you can win the argument but not on the grounds you are persuing

good luck and god bless

Wharfie