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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:45 pm 
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Now then, what if I took a booking in area A and gave it to a hackney driver licensed in area B but when he took the job he was in area C?


The driver is not licensed in Area C and has therefore broken the law.

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The circumstance in this case meant the judge only had to determine one situation and that was whether a person sat in his own licensed area could take a booking from an office situated in another area.


But couldnt you argue the same over the Gladen case?

The courts were asked if a hackney carriage needed a PH Operators license, not if HC's could operate elsewhere.

CC

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:28 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
I think what we can say from this is that the location of the taxi when accepting the booking determines the legality of the hire.


I don't think so. The judge was never asked to determine anything other than what was put before him. He wasn't asked to rule on a hypothetical issue or even consider the law in respect of a booking being passed on to a driver while the driver wasn't in his own licensed area?

There has never been a case on the subject as far as I'm aware and the closest one ever came was this one.

Under your reasoning every hackney carriage and private hire driver out of his licensed area cannot take a radio booking until he gets back in his own area? I'm afraid no matter how much you wish that to apply, the reality is, that it doesn't. Perhaps we don't have to look very far for an answer because we only have to look at the response the Liverpool delegation got from David Farmer. You recall they asked him to help change legislation that would prohibit vehicles from Sefton from sitting in Liverpool and taking radio bookings dispenced from Sefton, however Under your reasoning Liverpool would be able to prosecute such activity but obviously Liverpool believe they can't and quite rightly so.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:47 pm 
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In the 1847 act for obvious reasons it doesn't deal with phone bookings, or for that matter any bookings. But what happens if the licensed driver lives in another licensing area, and his next door neighbour asks him to run him to the airport?

He hasn't touted or plyed for the job, it was a booking. As the 1847 act doesn't mention bookings then it must be lawful.

As the 1976 act (confirmed by Gladen) doesn't change anything, then it still must be lawful.

Since 1847 there must have been millions of jobs similar to the above senario. One would have thought if it wasn't allowed, then we would know about it.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:48 pm 
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the conclusion is inescapable that the hiring took place in the area where these defendants were licensed.

The inevitable consequence of that, as it seems to me, is that the cabs in the instant case were not permitted to be hired in the licensed area. The hiring had already taken place.

Its not my reasoning its the reasoning of the court.

It's obvious the drivers would have been convicted if they were physically within the Green Badge Area. The fact is they were within their own district. And this is why they were found to be innocent.

Since when has the reality had anything to do with the law?

The response to the Liverpool delegation was with regards to Private Hire, not Hackney carriages.

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He hasn't touted or plyed for the job, it was a booking. As the 1847 act doesn't mention bookings then it must be lawful.


But section 67 of the 76 act recognises HC's can be used as PH?

Secetion 38 describes a HC as

"Every wheeled carriage, whatever may be its form or construction, used in standing or plying for hire in any street within the prescribed distance."

CC

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:57 am 
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captain cab wrote:
Regarding the person accepting the original booking.

I foresee the National Bodies working together towards a solution, one idea has already been mooted and I am sure when the bodies meet during the New Year a policy will be forthcoming.

CC


Does this include the GMB :-o :-o

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:22 am 
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Sorry for resorting to my thick geordie persona ..................... but wouldn't it be easier to just allow HC to accept phone bookings and make it a condition of a PH operators licence that he can only use vehicles and drivers (whether HC or PH) licensed within the same borough they are licensed as an operator.


It seems to me that the PH sector are concerned about competition from the HC sector.

Bless them.

B. Lucky :D

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:24 am 
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Perhaps you need to consider whether or not the thoughts about the possible meanings raised from the Gladen judgement is nothing more than a construction?

DPP vs. Computer Cab & Others

It is reasonably clear to surmise that a hackney carriage should be within its own licensed district to accept pre booking in another.

Middlesborough vs. Rose

It is clear from this decision a private hire operator passing on a pre booking to a hackney carriage in another district was illegal, as it made the hackney carriage unlicensed private hire.

Hull vs. Wilson

It is clear from this case that the court viewed the hackney carriage licensed in Beverley as a unlicensed PHV in Hull.


CC

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:53 am 
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captain cab wrote:
Middlesborough vs. Rose


You sure you got the right case here?

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JD


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:07 pm 
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Yes JD, it was a magistrates one, but persuasive?

Middlesborough vs. Rose

Mr. Rose was the owner / driver of a hackney carriage which was stopped in Middlesborough. It was claimed by the passenger that a vehicle had been booked through a Middlesborough private hire operator, but the vehicle, which fulfilled the booking, was a hackney carriage licensed in Redcar and Cleveland.

In defence it was said that as no radio was fitted in the vehicle with the private hire frequency it was not a private hire booking, and that the booking had been placed with him by mobile telephone by the private hire operator who was a friend. A check of the private hire operator records showed that the booking started and finished in Middlesborough and had been given to Mr. Rose to fulfil. However, at a later date an amendment had been made to the record to show a pick up point within the Redcar and Cleveland area.

It was claimed by the operator that a mistake had been made in the information collected by the investigating officer. In June 1999, at Teeside magistrates court, Mr. Rose was found guilty and fined £250 with a further £150 costs, as having acted as a Private hire driver whilst unlicensed.

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CC

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:17 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
Yes JD, it was a magistrates one, but persuasive?


Since when has a magistrates decision been persuasive?

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Jd


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:32 pm 
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Since when has a magistrates decision been persuasive?

Regards

Jd


Since I found it :wink:

Does it not back up the line of thinking of Hull vs. Wilson and DPP vs. Computer Cab?

Regards

CC

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:36 pm 
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[35] The district judge posed this question for the opinion of the High Court:

"Whether it is necessary to hold a licence under section 55 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, in an area where that Act is in force, to operate a hackney carriage duly licensed as such under the Town Police Clauses Act 1847 as a private hire vehicle."

[36] The answer to that question is: no. Accordingly, I would dismiss this appeal.


Does it not appear to you that the Judges were making a decision based on the case before them?

regards

CC

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:46 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
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Since when has a magistrates decision been persuasive?

Regards

Jd


Since I found it :wink:


lol I must admit you're a trier.

Quote:
Does it not back up the line of thinking of Hull vs. Wilson and DPP vs. Computer Cab?


I'm going to get around to that very shortly as soon as I finish some very important articles for a very important magazine. lol

Regards

JD


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:56 pm 
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Courtesy of 'Upfront' magazine from early 2006

For some inexplicable reason, known only to the editor, I have been asked to write another column.

I wonder if any of you out there can help me with a little problem I have, you see I am a little confused about this cross-border / sub contracting of work thing. We don’t have the cross-border argument over here for obvious reasons pertaining to the geography of the County, it being a pain in the backside and our love of sheep. However, your cross-border problems in the North East, whilst causing me mild amusement are leading to sleepless nights (no, not really).

As you will know (aye right), section 80 of the LGMP Act 1976 is pretty clear when it comes to describing the various terms of the act, “Operate” means in the course of business to make provision for the invitation or acceptance of bookings for a private hire vehicle. Therefore anyone accepting a booking in the course of business must be licensed.

Over the years many thousands of pounds have been spent on barristers and solicitors in shed loads of court cases. These include Dittah vs. Choudhry, Top Cars vs. Windsor, Powers vs. Bromsgrove, East Staffordshire vs. Rendell, Murtagh vs. Bromsgrove and of course you’re very own Shanks vs. North Tyneside.

It is more or less certain that a private hire operator cannot sub-contract work across borders. The general rule of thumb seems to be that where the phone rings is where the operators license should be issued, obviously both driver and vehicle also need to be licensed where the operator is (all three licenses).

It can therefore be assumed if I call a private hire operator / person who accepts bookings in the course of their business from Newcastle for a car to pick me up, he cannot phone up his mate in Carlisle and send me a vehicle licensed in Carlisle. He must send a vehicle licensed in Newcastle, with a driver licensed in Newcastle.

This obviously raises questions about some of the firms who operate on a national basis with call centres. There is an argument that they are merely acting as an agency, but surely any radio circuit, in any town is merely doing the same thing for the people who hire their radios. The description of an operator is, as previously stated ‘in the course of business to make provision for the invitation or acceptance of bookings for a private hire vehicle’.

I’m reasonably certain you’ll all be aware of the Shanks case, where the court found one firm couldn’t sub-contract to another. North Tyneside effectively said, as a North Tyneside licensed operator you could only use North Tyneside licensed vehicles and drivers and this is a stated case. However, if I set up a national call centre in Carlisle, go down the road of promising various national companies a decent service at a discounted rate, with a Carlisle national call centre number, then I sub-contract that work to firms a little nearer, using their cars and drivers, is this legal?

In this respect I would ask if firms such as ‘Fraser Eagle’ and ‘Taxibank’ are operating in a manner any different to the Shanks case? I know if I were in Mr. Shank’s size 9’s I’d be more than a little aggrieved, indeed I would possibly do a Cartman style ‘Godamnit!’.

If it has been deemed as illegal for me to pass a booking to another company 3 miles away, then surely it is equally illegal for me to pass a booking to someone 300 miles away? (that’s a question not a statement).

I would ask the question, in view of the cross border / sub contracting of work court cases if the following advertisement is lawful; ‘Taxibank is a national provider of professional private hire and taxi operators and our presence at this show is to introduce. We already organise cars for many blue chip clients across the country - try us and see how easy we make booking a taxi - anywhere!’

However, since these court cases the Private Hire Vehicles (London) Act 1998 has become law. Section 5 (1) reads as follows;

A London PHV operator (the first operator) who has in London accepted a private hire booking may not arrange for another operator to provide a vehicle to carry out that booking as a sub contractor unless: -

(a) The other operator is a London PHV operator and the sub contracted booking is accepted at an operating centre in London.

(b) The other operator is licensed under section 55 of the local government (miscellaneous provisions) Act 1976 (in this referred to as the 1976 Act) by the council of a district and the sub-contracted booking is accepted in that district; or


(c) The other operator accepts the sub contracted booking in Scotland

It would therefore appear that whilst provincial private hire operators cannot accept bookings and then sub contract them, their London counterparts can! The hypocrisy of this clear for all to see. It would appear that I could set up a London based call centre and send out PHV’s on a national basis, provided the operator who is sub-contracting from me is licensed under section 55 of the LGMP 1976 Act.

During the course of my work I have spoken with a number of Judges (no, I wasn’t appearing in front of them), one particular judge said with a smile, you taxi drivers are a litigious lot, however, given the ambiguities of licensing law, its very often the interpretation by others that makes us this way.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:13 pm 
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Courtesy and copyright of taxitalk



The legend that is and continues to be ‘Derek ‘I’m now retired so screw you all’ Cummins’, recently emailed me with a strange case in a certain area. A Scouser with a computer is a scary thing, although a gorilla with a machine gun is infinitely more intimidating.

To avoid any litigation, we will call these areas Conditionsville and Shadytown. Both areas have licensed taxis and private hire vehicles. However and as you would guess, Conditionsville has high standards of vehicle and driver, taxis must be wheelchair accessible and under a certain age.

Shadytown has conditions, but the main one appears to be centred on having four doors, a sunroof and drivers who wear ‘shellsuits’. In other words, conditions of license towards hackneys in Shadytown are a lot less stringent than in Conditionsville next door.

A private hire operator in Conditionsville notices this, so he licenses his vehicles and drivers in Shadytown as hackney carriages and operates them in Conditionsville covering his private hire work, why buy a £20,000 vehicle when you can buy one from the nearest scrap-yard?

So you have the general idea, you have Hackney Carriages from Shadytown operating lawfully, as private hire in Conditionsville.

To all intents and purposes it would appear to some that the situation is perfectly legal. The esteemed legal experts of Conditionsville and legal experts seem to be of the opinion that the private hire operator has found a loophole. All case law on what amounts to cross border hiring, seems to revolve around private hire vehicles being used in another area, not hackney carriages.

In other words we could all go to Shadytown, become licensed taxi proprietors there, then go back to where we come from and operate on a private hire circuit.

Even better is the fact that you could be suspended from driving a taxi in one district, license your self in another, then go back and work in your own district. Every one of you will be aware of a neighbouring authority whose conditions are not quite as stringent as your own, simply license yourself and vehicle there and bugger off back to your own district and work a private hire circuit!

It’s difficult to eat corn on the cob with no teeth, its even harder running and financing taxi licensing section with no taxis!

Having stated all of this, its surely occurs to someone out there, the reason a local authority issues hackney licenses in its district is purely and simply to serve the people within the district. They do not license them to operate as private hire in another area. This business is always going to attract scumbags who stretch the rules as far as they are able, however, that is the point, as far as they are able.

Is it not beyond the realms of the imagination for the licensing officers or police in Conditionsville to prosecute and make the lives of the drivers of cabs from Shadytown as difficult as possible? Surely the hackney carriage drivers of Shadytown are acting as unlicensed private hire drivers in Conditionsville, the hires start and end in Conditionsville after all.

As surprising as it may seem, I am not a legal eagle, I am not ‘Rumpole of the Bailey’, nor am I Columbo, I am certainly not a Judge John Deed. So if I was a licensing officer in Conditionsville why not attempt a prosecution on the basis the driver is acting as an unlicensed private hire driver, if they plead not guilty, take it to a higher court. Its fairly obvious the acts of both 1847 and 1976 were never intended for people to hunt around the country for the licensing regime with the most lax rules and then operate taxis in another area. I don’t think a decent Judge would actually allow their good name to be blighted by such an obvious flaw.

The licensing department of Conditionsville are a [edited by admin] poor bunch, more interested in screwing those who legitimately ply their trade than having the gumption to prosecute those who are obviously breaking the law.

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