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 Post subject: Fares and fare setting
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:31 pm 
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I have not gone through the documentation as thoroughly as everyone else but it does occur to me that from what I have read so far the LC haven't given this much thought

As I work in an area where hackney Fares are deregulated but this deregulated market does not work very well because it confuses customers and you get a chicken and egg situation as to who dares put up fares first. this is an issue which I personally think should be addressed by any new legislation

There is often a major conflict of interest between licensing departments and drivers over the setting of fares and my thoughts are that perhaps the setting of maximum fares for HC should perhaps be removed from local authorities and done on a regional basis perhaps by county councils with prescribed review periods such as every 2 years and some sort of formula for calculating increases based on actual operating cost rises (fuel,insurance,fees etc) and not the RPI

Does anybody else think this is practical or do you all think the current situation is acceptable

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:47 pm 
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I live in an area where Hackney fares are determined by a Meter. This Meter is checked and sealed by the Council. Testing it each year when the Taxi is accessed for it's suitability for a Plate.

The Meter's Reading is the maximum Fare that one can charge. If you wish to charge less, that's up to you.

edders23: In your area any Hackney can set his Meter any way he wishes? Which is a literal translation of what you have said. "As I work in an area where hackney Fares are deregulated". If this is correct then all the Local Authority has to do is re-write their regulations.

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:11 pm 
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It appears the LC want to keep taxi fares set locally.

Makes sense, but what I would like is a yearly/bi-yearly review written in statute, and more importantly it written that the council approved meter fare is the max fare allowed no matter where the job goes.

This should get rid of the cherry pickers and the greedy scam artists from the trade.

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:19 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
It appears the LC want to keep taxi fares set locally.

Makes sense, but what I would like is a yearly/bi-yearly review written in statute, and more importantly it written that the council approved meter fare is the max fare allowed no matter where the job goes.

This should get rid of the cherry pickers and the greedy scam artists from the trade.



I would go further......if the vehicle (including a PHV) has a taximeter, it must display the council set rate of fare.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:08 am 
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edders23 wrote:
I have not gone through the documentation as thoroughly as everyone else but it does occur to me that from what I have read so far the LC haven't given this much thought

As I work in an area where hackney Fares are deregulated but this deregulated market does not work very well because it confuses customers and you get a chicken and egg situation as to who dares put up fares first. this is an issue which I personally think should be addressed by any new legislation

There is often a major conflict of interest between licensing departments and drivers over the setting of fares and my thoughts are that perhaps the setting of maximum fares for HC should perhaps be removed from local authorities and done on a regional basis perhaps by county councils with prescribed review periods such as every 2 years and some sort of formula for calculating increases based on actual operating cost rises (fuel,insurance,fees etc) and not the RPI

Does anybody else think this is practical or do you all think the current situation is acceptable


Indeed, and that's the other major aspect of taxi(HC) regulation that the LC seems to have brushed over/copped out of, in addition to the quality control aspect.

I mean, in a nutshell, they say that the market doesn't work so well for taxis as opposed to PHVs, which I'm sure most would agree with to a greater or lesser extent. But accepting that, and having regard to what the LC says about over-and under-regulation, then why leave the current taxi mish mash of inconsistencies as it is?

The Knowledge of London is perhaps the most obvious example of qualitative over-regulation, yet it was perhaps instructive that even in their press release the LC had effectively given it a clean bill of health.

And to that extent they would look ridiculous if they were to criticise taxi quality control in the provincial jurisdictions.

And what does all this bring to mind? Oh yes, the good old OFT report, which barely mentioned the London trade other than to say what a great idea the T2 fare increase was for increasing supply at night, and which also provided a largely superficial analysis of fare regulation, and effectively gave that a clean bill of health as well.

Of course, one of the OFT's key recommendations was that quality control should be 'proportionate' and that LAs should 'encourage' fare discounting in the trade, both which recommendations have been a complete and utter waste of time, as was largely self-evident when the report was published.

All of which suggests to me that the LC's approach is born of political expediency rather than anything like independence, say, thus to a large extent a rehash of OFT ten years ago.

Of course, unlike the OFT at least the LC has acknowledged that its remit is based on politics, at least as far as its committment to 'localism' is concerned.

Equally, localism is perhaps what might be described as 'soft' politics, and perhaps the more hard-edged nefarious political dimension is what has to be sought between the lines, rather than stated explicitly by the LC. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:09 am 
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captain cab wrote:
Sussex wrote:
It appears the LC want to keep taxi fares set locally.

Makes sense, but what I would like is a yearly/bi-yearly review written in statute, and more importantly it written that the council approved meter fare is the max fare allowed no matter where the job goes.

This should get rid of the cherry pickers and the greedy scam artists from the trade.



I would go further......if the vehicle (including a PHV) has a taximeter, it must display the council set rate of fare.


Ah, but the market works well in the PH sector, so why would you need a meter set at regulated rates? [-X


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:16 am 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
captain cab wrote:
Sussex wrote:
It appears the LC want to keep taxi fares set locally.

Makes sense, but what I would like is a yearly/bi-yearly review written in statute, and more importantly it written that the council approved meter fare is the max fare allowed no matter where the job goes.

This should get rid of the cherry pickers and the greedy scam artists from the trade.

I would go further......if the vehicle (including a PHV) has a taximeter, it must display the council set rate of fare.

Ah, but the market works well in the PH sector, so why would you need a meter set at regulated rates? [-X

According to PH operators perhaps.

But ask the serf drivers and you get a totally different story.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:23 am 
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captain cab wrote:
Sussex wrote:
It appears the LC want to keep taxi fares set locally.

Makes sense, but what I would like is a yearly/bi-yearly review written in statute, and more importantly it written that the council approved meter fare is the max fare allowed no matter where the job goes.

This should get rid of the cherry pickers and the greedy scam artists from the trade.

I would go further......if the vehicle (including a PHV) has a taximeter, it must display the council set rate of fare.

For a HC yes, but for a PH with a fare-meter it should be tested and sealed to the tariff set by the PH operator on whose circuit the vehicle is based.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:16 am 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Dusty Bin wrote:
Ah, but the market works well in the PH sector, so why would you need a meter set at regulated rates? [-X

According to PH operators perhaps.

But ask the serf drivers and you get a totally different story.


Well according to the LC as well, not just PH operators.

But of course the LC is looking at the market from the consumer perspective, not from the labour market viewpoint.

So the LC is saying that if market failure in terms of cab users is evident then acting to rectify this is OK, but as far as market failure for cab drivers is concerned then that's not a problem.

Perhaps the one exception is the employment status bit, but that's arguably approached from the law enforcement perspective rather than as regards equity in the labour market.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:35 am 
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And as regards the OFT report again, at the time I thought they didn't propose anything too radical because that would require new legislation, and there was no political will for that. So instead they merely proposed things that were effectively already on the table and could be implemented via a fast-track process (Regulatory Reform Orders, as I think they were called).

So apart from the RRO stuff and the largely meaningless and/or pointless recommendations regarding quality control and fare discounting there wasn't really much there, and political expediency seemed to dictate that more fundamental reform - not to mention difficult issues like the KOL - were effectively off the table from the start.

Of course, the LC have more of a blank canvas to work with, but on the other hand their blueprint seems more tinkering around the edges and clarifying current law rather than anything more radical, perhaps again hamstrung by political imperatives.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:27 pm 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
But of course the LC is looking at the market from the consumer perspective, not from the labour market viewpoint


Imo if you only look at half the story you only get half the facts. If drivers can't earn a living they will do one of 3 things, they'll give up entirely, they'll rely on the state for top up to their income or they'll work dangerously long hours to ensure they can pay their way. If a driver chooses the latter that is dangerous to the consumer or have the LC not thought about that.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:31 pm 
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toots wrote:
Dusty Bin wrote:
But of course the LC is looking at the market from the consumer perspective, not from the labour market viewpoint

Imo if you only look at half the story you only get half the facts. If drivers can't earn a living they will do one of 3 things, they'll give up entirely, they'll rely on the state for top up to their income or they'll work dangerously long hours to ensure they can pay their way. If a driver chooses the latter that is dangerous to the consumer or have the LC not thought about that.

You forgot one; they will rip-off punters when they can.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
toots wrote:
Dusty Bin wrote:
But of course the LC is looking at the market from the consumer perspective, not from the labour market viewpoint

Imo if you only look at half the story you only get half the facts. If drivers can't earn a living they will do one of 3 things, they'll give up entirely, they'll rely on the state for top up to their income or they'll work dangerously long hours to ensure they can pay their way. If a driver chooses the latter that is dangerous to the consumer or have the LC not thought about that.

You forgot one; they will rip-off punters when they can.


I think that kind of driver will do that regardless of circumstance imo

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:23 pm 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
toots wrote:
Dusty Bin wrote:
But of course the LC is looking at the market from the consumer perspective, not from the labour market viewpoint

Imo if you only look at half the story you only get half the facts. If drivers can't earn a living they will do one of 3 things, they'll give up entirely, they'll rely on the state for top up to their income or they'll work dangerously long hours to ensure they can pay their way. If a driver chooses the latter that is dangerous to the consumer or have the LC not thought about that.

You forgot one; they will rip-off punters when they can.

Also the ones that will rip off the state by claiming benefits that they shouldn't claim because they are in fact working and not declaring it.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 3:58 pm 
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Grandad wrote:
Also the ones that will rip off the state by claiming benefits that they shouldn't claim because they are in fact working and not declaring it.


Brummie Cabbie wrote:
You forgot one; they will rip-off punters when they can.


Whilst I agree that the two scenarios above do happen it has little to do with

Toots wrote:
Imo if you only look at half the story you only get half the facts. If drivers can't earn a living they will do one of 3 things, they'll give up entirely, they'll rely on the state for top up to their income or they'll work dangerously long hours to ensure they can pay their way. If a driver chooses the latter that is dangerous to the consumer or have the LC not thought about that.


The sort of people who do the kind of things mentioned would do it anyway. My concerns are that if drivers cannot earn a living within sensible hours they will take risks and that is dangerous, imo all aspects should be looked at not just one side

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