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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:35 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
gusmac wrote:
Quote:
the people of Scotland understand that we are an equal partner within the UK


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now I'm as much a little Englander as you could ever wish (or not) to meet, but in all my life I have never considered Scotland or the other UK countries to be in any way inferior to my country.

And I don't know anyone who does.


Yes Sussex. All the inferiority is emanating from Scotland.

The old adage is true. We Scots are well balanced. We have a chip on both shoulders.

I've been to England more times than I can recall. I have NEVER felt that I was different to them by being a Scot.

There is much wrong with the UK union. But it is OUR union. And, rather than Scots bleating on about being different, we should be celebrating the strength and respect our union brings, and working to even improve it.

But, we should remember that politics is about self interest and control. And Salmond is working the first to achieve the second.

Which worries me, because I don't want to live in a banana republic.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:04 pm 
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Why would Scotland become a Banana republic with the chinese desperate to gain control of Grangemouth refinery and no doubt an independant Scotland would be strongly courted by the US Scotland would be in a strong position to pick and choose whose pawn they become :p

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:15 pm 
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edders23 wrote:
Why would Scotland become a Banana republic with the chinese desperate to gain control of Grangemouth refinery and no doubt an independant Scotland would be strongly courted by the US Scotland would be in a strong position to pick and choose whose pawn they become :p


Now let's think about this edders, and I mean, really, think about it. How would Scotland be, any different to England, when it comes to representing the man on the street?

You know. I struggle to see the difference, other than, another cabal running things for their benefit.

I could be wrong, but perhaps Stationtone, and the likes, would care to explain how things are going to get better for your average Joe, under independence.

I just don't see it, but I am open to persuasion.


Over to you Stationtone, sell me Independence? :-|


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:36 am 
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you have a scottish section on TDO is this not enough independence :D


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:02 am 
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gusmac wrote:
Sussex wrote:

And I don't know anyone who does.


You don't know Nidge then? :badgrin:



The prize bollock rises from his slumber. You take the bait far to easily.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:03 am 
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Skull wrote:
edders23 wrote:
Why would Scotland become a Banana republic with the chinese desperate to gain control of Grangemouth refinery and no doubt an independant Scotland would be strongly courted by the US Scotland would be in a strong position to pick and choose whose pawn they become :p


Now let's think about this edders, and I mean, really, think about it. How would Scotland be, any different to England, when it comes to representing the man on the street?

You know. I struggle to see the difference, other than, another cabal running things for their benefit.

I could be wrong, but perhaps Stationtone, and the likes, would care to explain how things are going to get better for your average Joe, under independence.

I just don't see it, but I am open to persuasion.


Over to you Stationtone, sell me Independence? :-|



Alex Salmond says they are going to be different so it must be true.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:23 pm 
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As part of Great Britain we are controlled by Europe, If we vote for Independence and Join Europe we will be controlled by Europe, i'd rather be controlled by Europe as Scotland not controlled as Great Britain, If however the Terms and Conditions of Joining Europe don't suit the Scottish people, example being not adopting the euro as our currency, then we could go to plan B :shock: :shock:

Norway :shock: :shock:

Independent of Europe but the country works and doing very nicely thank you very much :wink: :wink: :wink: :D

Convinced Skull?
from,
Your ever thinking Social Democrat, Private Reggie Esq :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:46 pm 
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Private Reggie wrote:
As part of Great Britain we are controlled by Europe, If we vote for Independence and Join Europe we will be controlled by Europe, i'd rather be controlled by Europe as Scotland not controlled as Great Britain, If however the Terms and Conditions of Joining Europe don't suit the Scottish people, example being not adopting the euro as our currency, then we could go to plan B :shock: :shock:

Norway :shock: :shock:

Independent of Europe but the country works and doing very nicely thank you very much :wink: :wink: :wink: :D

Convinced Skull?
from,
Your ever thinking Social Democrat, Private Reggie Esq :lol: :lol: :lol:


Your problem is that you are so entrenched with servility that you see the way forward as who it would be best to doff you cap at.

FFS dougie grow up.

Any why would any sane individual possibly want to give control away to unelected, faceless and unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels?

Lock your doors when civil war breaks out Dougie. You never know who's gonna come beat down your door.

Because I'll tell you this. There are many who will not live under the yolk of fascist Salmond and his European masters.

#-o


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:21 pm 
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Jasbar wrote:
fascist Salmond


Your dislike of Alex Salmond is obvious to anyone Jim.
Care to tell us why you think he's a fascist?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:27 pm 
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I favour the Norwegian route !!!

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Private Reggie wrote:
As part of Great Britain we are controlled by Europe, If we vote for Independence and Join Europe we will be controlled by Europe, i'd rather be controlled by Europe as Scotland not controlled as Great Britain, If however the Terms and Conditions of Joining Europe don't suit the Scottish people, example being not adopting the euro as our currency, then we could go to plan B :shock: :shock:

Norway :shock: :shock:

Independent of Europe but the country works and doing very nicely thank you very much :wink: :wink: :wink: :D

Convinced Skull?
from,
Your ever thinking Social Democrat, Private Reggie Esq :lol: :lol: :lol:


Where do you get this tripe?

This was the question I asked:

Quote:
I could be wrong, but perhaps Stationtone, and the likes, would care to explain how things are going to get better for your average Joe, under independence.

Now pay special attention to what's written in bold. #-o


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:51 pm 
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I don't know who wrote the following, but it should give you some idea of how the system really works and exactly what you are voting for, or not, as the case may be.

The writing in bold is specifically targeted at you, Dougie.

In my opinion, The Matrix films provide the best metaphor our society has for understanding why organized evil and oppression are allowed to exist, and so I will use it for this purpose. While my interpretation isn't the only possible one, I believe it to be valid, comprehensive, and most importantly, illustrative of the message I am trying to convey.

So let's begin by discussing what the Matrix is not. The Matrix is not the physical world. As far as I'm concerned, the physical world is actually real and is in fact governed ceaselessly by the laws of physics. Conversely, the Matrix is also not the Internet, despite what many seem to believe. The Matrix spans and transcends both these worlds. It has existed since the dawn of civilization, and it will continue to exist until its collapse.
So then, what is it? Well, that's complicated. Much like in the movie, it's nearly impossible to convey the size and scope of the Matrix to someone who doesn't already see it for what it is. However, unlike the movie, I believe it is an ethical imperative to try to convey it in a literal sense, even to those who are so dependent upon the Matrix that they would fight to protect it. At worst, they won't understand or believe and will continue on about their business. In a sense, I believe Cypher was right to resent Morpheus for what he did, because Morpheus engaged in flat out trickery and deception to free people.

But I digress. The Matrix is the social structure that subordinates Humanity to its will. It is the machinery of society that exists solely to perpetuate itself, its influence, and its power independent of any human need. It insulates us from each other and ourselves through deception, and essentially transforms us into servile engines of economic and political output (power). The machines that live off this power are institutions: large corporations, governments, schools, religious institutions, and even non-profit orgs. Every institution will reach a point in its existence where its primary function becomes self-preservation and perpetuation, instead of serving human need. At this point it becomes a machine of the Matrix. For example, when they become machines, governments cease to serve people and instead seek to extend their power over them; corporations prioritize increasing shareholder value over producing quality products or otherwise serving the public good; schools view students as a means and not an end; religious organizations equate membership with salvation (and actively oppose other teachings and even independent practice); and non-profits and charities spend more budget on fund raising activity than on their original focus. Inevitably all large institutions eventually become machines. They become too big for Humanity.

In addition to the independent self-perpetuating machines that write most of our paychecks, the Matrix has several major cooperative and more actively sinister groups of machines subsisting off of its power and directly contributing to the structure of the Matrix itself. These groups are the Military Industrial Complex, the Political Industrial Complex, the Prison Industrial Complex, the Surveillance Industrial Complex, the Media Industrial Complex, the Academic Industrial Complex, the Agricultural Industrial Complex, the Medical Industrial Complex and the major religious organizations (not to be confused with actual religions, many religious organizatons have abandoned the underlying principles of the religions they claim to represent). All machines in these groups either actively oppress humanity, or enable the oppression to persist. It is through their combined efforts that the Matrix takes on some of its more distasteful qualities.

:-|


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:00 pm 
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Your question is at the moment a hypothetical question !!! Unless the existence of a crystal ball really does exist.

Skull your voice in this country you call Great Britain is one in sixty million, in an independent Scotland your voice could be one in 5 million, giving you a better chance of being listened to.

What kind of country do you want to live in, I could guess the year or century but will say your opinions date pre-80s !!!

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:08 pm 
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Skull wrote:
I don't know who wrote the following, but it should give you some idea of how the system really works and exactly what you are voting for, or not, as the case may be.

The writing in bold is specifically targeted at you, Dougie.

In my opinion, The Matrix films provide the best metaphor our society has for understanding why organized evil and oppression are allowed to exist, and so I will use it for this purpose. While my interpretation isn't the only possible one, I believe it to be valid, comprehensive, and most importantly, illustrative of the message I am trying to convey.

So let's begin by discussing what the Matrix is not. The Matrix is not the physical world. As far as I'm concerned, the physical world is actually real and is in fact governed ceaselessly by the laws of physics. Conversely, the Matrix is also not the Internet, despite what many seem to believe. The Matrix spans and transcends both these worlds. It has existed since the dawn of civilization, and it will continue to exist until its collapse.
So then, what is it? Well, that's complicated. Much like in the movie, it's nearly impossible to convey the size and scope of the Matrix to someone who doesn't already see it for what it is. However, unlike the movie, I believe it is an ethical imperative to try to convey it in a literal sense, even to those who are so dependent upon the Matrix that they would fight to protect it. At worst, they won't understand or believe and will continue on about their business. In a sense, I believe Cypher was right to resent Morpheus for what he did, because Morpheus engaged in flat out trickery and deception to free people.

But I digress. The Matrix is the social structure that subordinates Humanity to its will. It is the machinery of society that exists solely to perpetuate itself, its influence, and its power independent of any human need. It insulates us from each other and ourselves through deception, and essentially transforms us into servile engines of economic and political output (power). The machines that live off this power are institutions: large corporations, governments, schools, religious institutions, and even non-profit orgs. Every institution will reach a point in its existence where its primary function becomes self-preservation and perpetuation, instead of serving human need. At this point it becomes a machine of the Matrix. For example, when they become machines, governments cease to serve people and instead seek to extend their power over them; corporations prioritize increasing shareholder value over producing quality products or otherwise serving the public good; schools view students as a means and not an end; religious organizations equate membership with salvation (and actively oppose other teachings and even independent practice); and non-profits and charities spend more budget on fund raising activity than on their original focus. Inevitably all large institutions eventually become machines. They become too big for Humanity.

In addition to the independent self-perpetuating machines that write most of our paychecks, the Matrix has several major cooperative and more actively sinister groups of machines subsisting off of its power and directly contributing to the structure of the Matrix itself. These groups are thSo you are a FANTASIST, My god your so fecked up its unreal, sorry skull but I'm happy with my place and level in this big bad world, I shouldn't apologise but I fear for your sanity !!!e Military Industrial Complex, the Political Industrial Complex, the Prison Industrial Complex, the Surveilla
nce Industrial Complex, the Media Industrial Complex, the Academic Industrial Complex, the Agricultural Industrial Complex, the Medical Industrial Complex and the major religious organizations (not to be confused with actual religions, many religious organizatons have abandoned the underlying principles of the religions they claim to represent). All machines in these groups either actively oppress humanity, or enable the oppression to persist. It is through their combined efforts that the Matrix takes on some of its more distasteful qualities.

:-|

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:11 pm 
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Private Reggie wrote:
Your question is at the moment a hypothetical question !!! Unless the existence of a crystal ball really does exist.

Skull your voice in this country you call Great Britain is one in sixty million, in an independent Scotland your voice could be one in 5 million, giving you a better chance of being listened to.

What kind of country do you want to live in, I could guess the year or century but will say your opinions date pre-80s !!!



Read the above Dougie, and read it very carefully. :-| You don't know even what you are voting for. It's simply bullshi*! #-o


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