Taxi Driver Online

The human rights act looks extremely prominent here,Preventing a person from earning a crust,And the monopolies commission It could if it goes to the European courts

I've always been of the opinion that a council inforced dress code is in breach of the human rights act. Right of expression etc.

But would I want to spend years and thousands taking it through the court system? Don't think so.

I will simply wait for some other mush to do it.

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IDFIMH

The lippy does not go with your handbag Sussex and them shoes ill be damd

Interestingly, the alleged current quality controls we have, particularly in edinburgh, don't extend to any form of driver training which should include instruction about undertaking the unique U turn manouevre a tx is capable of.

In the hands of idiots, and I've seen many, it is dangerous - a shift ender even.

I don't do enough u turns to worry about this little restrictive practice. And, so what if I have to driver a wee bit further to make a turn safely, or a customer has to cross the street. If a customer can't cross a street safely or is not prepared to give you time to make the turn safely, do we really want to be picking them up?

LTI needs to protect its monopoly. The taxi trade needs to match vehicle type to its market. Customers need to travel in comfortable, cost efficient and safe vehicles.

Two out of three ain't bad.

Yes, I think that like lots of things in the trade that the tight turning circle is as much spin as substance.

A similar thing that comes to mind just now is fare protection - councils will tell you that consumers are protected because fares are limited. However, at this time of year complaints about overcharging are more frequent than usual, and it's no use limiting fares if drivers overcharge with impunity and no one complains, because many people don't even know that fares are limited and/or that councils are responsible for licensing taxis.

And I certainly wouldn't be surprised if some drivers in my area think they can charge whatever they want if it's agreed - they're certainly never formally told that they can't charge more than the meter (and most probably never read the rules).

Then of course there's the whole issue of PH/'quasi-taxis' and the lack of fare control there, or not as the case maybe - ie when they have meters fitted, as discussed in another thread.

A bit off-topic as regards the turning circle perhaps, but the point is that the theory often doesn't quite equate to the practice.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

Yep, and anyone that passes 'Harringey Cars' of St Annes Road will see that first hand.

Nice bashed L reg Previa, nice compact N reg Peugeot 309, just what you want for those 'special' trips to the theatre, or you could really go to town with the m reg white rusty Vauxhall Astra estate.

Quality, pure unrivaled quality from the London Minicab trade.

(and thats in adition to their wonderful non English, geographicaly clueless drivers)

As I asked before GBC, what is the relevance of the age of the car - didn't you have a 'teenager' yourself?

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

Difference is though Dusty, mine was dismantled every year and rebuilt to the meticulous PCO standard, not the standard MOT, which allows your vehicle to be mechanicaly correct, but allows it to look like sheite.

If people are happy to travel to the Airport in a Peugeot 309 Hatchback, then good luck to them, I suspect you would'nt.

But thats what separates Londons premium trade from the second class trade.

Well I agree with you in certain regards, but you often give the impression that you think that age per se is a problem.

I've always been in favour of an age rule myself, but didn't the London taxi trade object to a reduction in the age rule from 15 to 12 years? Thus if the taxi trade objects to the age of vehicles pe se then it seems a bit hypocritical.

So why mention the age of the vehicles, if it's mainly the appearance, size etc that you object to?

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

In 2002 there were 34,175 wheelchair accessible Taxis in England and Wales, more than half of all taxis. Of these, 32,294 were purpose built "London-style" taxi bodies but when you remove the 20,500 purpose built vehicles in the city of London, it leaves only 11,794 licensed in the provinces.

There is no doubt that the bulk of your market share is concentrated in one area, that being the City of London. The only reason you have that market share is by virtue of the 25ft turning circle.

In 2002 there were 32,650 saloon type Taxi vehicles in England and Wales, we can deduce from this figure that where mandatory orders are not in force and people have vehicle choice it appears LTI type vehicles are way down in the pecking order?

Remove mandatory orders, or in London's case remove the 25ft turning circle requirement and you would no doubt have some serious competition on your hands?.

It is significant that where other motor manufacturers have an established world market, LTI is limited to selling its vehicles here in the UK. I suspect there are many reasons why you haven't been able to break into international markets and in particular those in Europe, not least because of your price tag, lack of comfort, accessories and safety features, which are commonplace in most other vehicles, such as ABS breaking systems, airbags, decent suspension etc etc.

It is also plain to see why you have a market share in London and a somewhat smaller market share throughout the rest of the UK but does it not disturb you that you cannot retain a market share without the help of administrative bodies making it compulsory to purchase a vehicle with a 25ft turning circle?

Do you really believe that the majority of Taxi drivers in this country would purchase what most of them know to be an over priced, under performing vehicle such as the ones both you and Metrocab produce?

Do the figures not speak for themselves?

This very week a driver in Manchester was offered 14,000 pounds for a 3 year old TX2 in excellent condition with about 100 thousand miles on the clock, in part exchange for buying a new TX2. That’s a loss of some 16,000 pounds on his initial 30,000 pound investment. He then had to get a loan for 16,000 which with interest over three years brought the total repayment figure to 22,000 pounds. This means he is paying 36,000 for a vehicle which in most peoples eyes is valued at a third of that price.

You can perhaps see one of the reasons why most people are not interested in purchasing your vehicles, unless of course they have too?

Regards

JD

In some way I'm over the moon that Ken has kept the circle.

I mean we don't want them to have nice comfortable cars for customers?

Ollie

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Happy to be legit.

"It is significant that where other motor manufacturers have an established world market, LTI is limited to selling its vehicles here in the UK. I suspect there are many reasons why you haven't been able to break into international markets and in particular those in Europe, not least because of your price tag, lack of comfort, accessories and safety features, which are commonplace in most other vehicles, such as ABS breaking systems, airbags, decent suspension etc etc. "

JD, you're spot on.

But I would also draw attention to:

Heated rear windows which quickly fail.

Windscreens that don't demist.

Electric aerials which fail.

Seats which are difficult to adjust.

Hire sign bulbs which continually blow.

Headlamp bulbs which are notoriously difficult to replace.

Switch bulbs which continually fail.

The backbreaking effort required to liberate the spare wheel.

The ramp system which doesn't meet safety standards.

The backbreaking effort required to turn a wheelchair inside the vehicle - largely because of the wheel arches.

The inability to lock only the drivers door from inside the vehicle for security reasons.

The atrocious intercom system which is either too low to hear properly or continually whines feedback.

Then there's the poor fuel economy.

And the fact that 03 and 04 TX2s are widely regarded as "turkeys".

And that the local LTI dealer is the most atrocious vehicle dealer I've ever dealt with.

Now, while every driver I have spoken to is aware of these, and other, common faults, they slavishly defend them. Why?

However, by freeing up the types of permitted vehicles, they would still be able to drive LTI offerings if they so choose. Meanwhile the rest of us would be able to drive vehicles which actually work properly.

In his announcement that the 25ft turning circle was to be retained Ken Livingstone implied he wasn't happy with the suspension, comfort and emission performance. I understand he also stated this back in 2003 or 2004, has anyone got a copy of the text from that date?

Ken Livingstone, announcing the decision, made it clear that he hoped manufacturers wouldn’t rest on their laurels, but would continue to improve accessibility: “I expect the next generation of taxis to provide better comfort for drivers and passengers, better suspension, better accessibility and improved environmental performance.”

The taxi trade was divided over the issue. Some cabbies wanted the chance to use cheaper vehicles, while others were anxious to protect their existing investments. The London Taxi Drivers Association (LTDA) has given the verdict the thumbs down, saying it will “condemn London’s taxi operators to an uncertain future of escalating costs”. This view was echoed by Mike Holland of rival manufacturers Jubilee Automotive Group, who described the PCO’s decision as “carrying on 40 years of gross dishonesty” and “a disgrace”.

London Taxis International, on the other hand, who manufacture the TXII, are delighted. “LTI welcomes competition,” said Chris Kelsey. “There were over forty taxi manufacturers before pre World War Two. There is no reason why there should not be as many again. All it takes to meet the Conditions of Fitness is time, money and effort – something LTI has always put in.”

lol can you believe he actually said There is no reason there should not be as many again?

Regards

JD

Edinburgh is nearing a decision day on the application of Allied to have its vehicles licensed by Edinburgh City Council. With this in mind I would just like to remind everyone of the position of LTI in so far as maintaining the Turning circle. This email has not previously been highlighted on TDO but it does echo the same sentiments expressed in an earlier email which was highlighted in this thread


From:

"Kelsey, Chris" <CKelsey@manganese.com>

To:

"'Stephen Broughton"' <stephen.broughton@edinburgh,gov.uk>
cc: <donald.anderson@edinburgh.gov.uk>; "'J H"' <jessamy.herbert@edinburgh.gov.uk>; <jack.odonnell@edinburgh.gov.uk>; "'Andy Watt"' <andy.watt@edinburgh.gov.uk>; <phil.attridge@edinburgh.gov.uk>; "'Robert Millar"' <robert.millar@edinburgh.gov.uk>;
<ian.murray@edinburgh.gov.uk>; <michael.dixon@edinburgh.gov.uk>;
"'Shami.Khan@edinburgh.gov.uk"' <shami.khan@edinburgh.gov.uk>;
<allan.laing@edinburgh.gov.uk>; "'Liz.O'Malley@edinburgh.gov.uk"'
<liz.o'malley@edinburgh .gov.u k>; cdavid .walker@edinburgh .gov.u k>;
<chris.wigglesworth@edinburgh.gov.u k>

Sent:

26 March 2004 10:49

Subject: LTI request for deputation at next meeting of Regulatory Committee to discuss Allied application, Stephen Broughton.

LTI request for deputation at next meeting of Regulatory Committee to discuss Allied application It was nice to meet you on Wednesday (24 March 2004). Thank you for bringing our request for a deputation at Wednesday's meeting to the Chair's attention.

I am emailing you to request a further deputation at the next meeting of the Regulatory Committee to discuss the application by Allied Vehicles to abolish the long standing and world famous turning circle on Edinburgh's taxis. I believe this meeting is scheduled for Wednesday 21 April 2004 at 2pm at City Chambers?

Could you confirm the date and venue for me? Many thanks in advance.

If it is not this date, please could this deputation request stand for whenever the next meeting of the Regulatory Committee takes place to discuss this important matter? Many thanks in advance. Could you andor J H ensure I am sent all the paperwork ahead of the meeting as I did not receive any for the meeting on Wednesday 24 March 2004. My contact details are set out at the foot of this email. As you know this is a vital issue for us and there is much at stake with this decision not least the future on a British icon, jobs and R&D budgets for future development of the world famous purpose built taxi.

I am still not clear as to why Edinburgh Council are considering removing the need for a tight turning circle on Edinburgh's taxis when this feature is designed to prevent accidents by removing the need for passengers to cross the road if they are hailing an oncoming vehicle? Why would anyone want to remove a feature that has proven driver and passenger benefit?

Should not standards get better as times goes by and technology improves not go backwards? Public standards should not be dropped to suit a supplier - suppliers have to raise theirs to enter the market surely?

It is not rocket science to do the 25ft turning circle on any vehicle particuarly with rear wheel or indeed four wheel steer. It just takes time and money to meet the turning circle-something LTI has always put in.

Any converter wishing to meet the turning circle should simply telephone
GKN on 01 527 5 177 15. They designed our turning circle for us and I am sure would be happy to help other engineers. As I understand it Allied don't want to invest to do this as it would make their vehicle about the same price as our's.

Many thanks in advance for your help in this matter.
Kind regards
Chris Kelsey
Christopher Kelsey
Government Affairs Director
London Taxis International
7 Quayside Lodge
William Morris Way
London
SW6 2UZ
TelO20 7731 6385
Fax02073719481

www.mang;anese. com

26/03/2004

If it was as straightforward as Mr Kelsey claimed then I think others would have done it by now.

I suspect the reason that this has not happened is because the limited market means that the cost of developing a new vehicle could not be justified - thus in effect LTI has a natural monopoly.

After all, Mr Kelsey also (I think) claimed that a marginal loss of sales would put LTI out of business, so that seems to somewhat contradict the argument that another manufacturer could easily develop a new vehicle.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk