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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:38 pm 
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JD wrote:
have either of you an opinion when oil might run out?

I've read various articles on oil peaking followed by a gradual decline but none have stated that such a time is "here and now".

if oil is to run out in the next 50 or 60 years then the UK Government won't have anything to tax

does anyone think that only those who use the health service, should pay for it?


1) Oil will never "run out", but there will be a point at which the flow will be so minimal and so much energy would be required to extract it that it would be futile to do so. What matters much more is the point at which demand becomes constricted by available supply - and that is about now. My guess is that we'll see rationing in the UK around 2015.

2) According to ASPO, production of light sweet crude ("conventional oil") has already peaked (2005 ~ 2006) - check out their monthly newsletter:

http://www.aspo-ireland.org/contentFile ... 200806.pdf

http://www.aspo-ireland.org/index.cfm/page/newsletter

What you'll see is that the diminishing flow of light sweet is being offset by an increasing flow of sour ("heavy") crude and other non-conventionals such as oil derived from shale or tar sands. These will only delay a peak of "all liquids" by about 5 years - note that the ASPO newsletters indicate both conventional and total liquids.

3) According to the following reports, the UK is low in tax per GDP relative to other EU nations. Does this mean UK hauliers are in a better position than the French? I have no idea.

Tax to fuel data.

Taxi to fuel data 2

4) I believe the Health Service should be government run. I would hate the US system to be adopted where there is suspicion of doctors being influenced by "big pharma" as well as the hastle of having to negotiate with insurance companies.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:41 pm 
There was a guy on SKY news last week wh oworks in the oil trade, he said BP's reserves were in excess of 13 trillion barrels, he said Shell and all the other oil companies reserves were on the same scale. He also said that there are billions of barrels undescovered around the Britich Isles. He also said that there's enough oil to last well over 150 years.

He was asked about the crude oil prices? He said these were being inflated by OPEC and people who were working the oil markets employed by OPEC, OPEC were paying them to keep the price of crude oil inflated. OPEC also want to get even with the UK and US for nearly sending them bust back in 1991 when a barrel of crude was only $8 a barrel. The oil producing coutries can increase output by 3 million barrels a day but they won't because the price of crude will drop overnight.

All this talk about we are running out of oil is nothing more than scare tactics, like I mentioned above there's enough oil left to last us and our children and our childrens children.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:47 pm 
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JD wrote:
I'm not advocating privatising the health service, I'm merely posing the question "where is the lost tax revenue going to come from when there is no more fuel to tax"? Apart from general income tax Motorists are probably the largest single contributor to the exchequer.

According to the RAC over 42 billion pounds is collected from motorists each year with only 6 billion spent on roads.

How the government funds the health service or anything else is nothing to do with this current global crisis, although I agree the amount of tax (duty+VAT) is obscene and adds hugely to the cost of fuel in this country. Paying VAT on the duty is even more obscene - tax on a tax. Rates of duty have not changed this year and neither has the VAT rate. Around 7p of the increased cost since October is down to VAT. The rest (about 26p) is mostly down to the dramatic and unprecidented increases in the price of crude oil. UK taxation policy just makes a bad situation even worse.


JD wrote:
Back in 1985 the standard income tax rate was 29% and before 1985 it was 30%. I suppose someone might inform me that in 1980 a litre of petrol before tax was only 15p and that if the price of petrol had increased by the rate of inflation since 1980 then todays price would only be 39p.


Fuel prices without tax are primarily influenced by the cost of the raw material i.e. crude oil. The price today for diesel without tax would be around 52p (127.9p - 56.94p[duty] - 19.05p[vat]= 51.91p)
Against last October's 32p, thats an increase of over 61% in the last 9 months, most of it since February/March.

JD wrote:
A 2005 Esso report stated that, in the UK both pre-tax fuel prices and gross margins are amongst the lowest in Europe but when Government taxes are added pump prices soar to the highest in Europe.


Agreed. As I said UK policy makes a bad situation worse.
UK tax doesn't affect the rest of the world who are also seeing vast hikes in the cost of their fuel, though they still pay far less than we do.

JD wrote:
The cost of oil is not the problem, Tax is the problem but when there is no more fuel to tax what will the Government do then?
Both are problems. One is new and the other has been with us for years. These are separate problems with separate causes. They have combined to create a huge problem. What will the goverment do about it? Probably nothing, since they have few alternatives which would be any more acceptable.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:53 pm 
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Nigel wrote:
There was a guy on SKY news last week wh oworks in the oil trade, he said BP's reserves were in excess of 13 trillion barrels, he said Shell and all the other oil companies reserves were on the same scale. He also said that there are billions of barrels undescovered around the Britich Isles. He also said that there's enough oil to last well over 150 years.

He was asked about the crude oil prices? He said these were being inflated by OPEC and people who were working the oil markets employed by OPEC, OPEC were paying them to keep the price of crude oil inflated. OPEC also want to get even with the UK and US for nearly sending them bust back in 1991 when a barrel of crude was only $8 a barrel. The oil producing coutries can increase output by 3 million barrels a day but they won't because the price of crude will drop overnight.

All this talk about we are running out of oil is nothing more than scare tactics, like I mentioned above there's enough oil left to last us and our children and our childrens children.


Having vast reserves doesn't mean you can get it out of the ground fast enough to satisfy demand.

Now whether the crisis is being caused by OPEC deliberately restricting supply or genuine global lack of production makes no difference, the effect on prices is still the same.

BTW can someone fix the width of this page?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:59 pm 
It's Jason's fault for posting that long link, can't understnd why people don't use THIS when they've got a long link to post, it keeps the page the same width. The long link posted looks like this, http://tinyurl.com/2up9l3 and this http://tinyurl.com/44q639 the same links only shorter.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:01 pm 
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Yeah sorry about the links - I can be a lazy git at times :P

Nigel wrote:
There was a guy on SKY news last week wh oworks in the oil trade, he said BP's reserves were in excess of 13 trillion barrels, he said Shell and all the other oil companies reserves were on the same scale. He also said that there are billions of barrels undescovered around the Britich Isles. He also said that there's enough oil to last well over 150 years.

Really?

So why does BP's Statistical Report show a total proved reserves of 1390.1GB (Page 6)? In terms of production IRO 85MB/d, that equates to between 40 to 45 years (Page 10) - the so-called R/P ratio - which is a mere yardstick and doesn't take declining production (flow) rates into account.

Calling depletionists "scaremongers" sounds like Malcolm Wicks; who said in 2003 that warnings of impending North Sea gas depletion was "scaremongering", then in 2006 announced, "it's running out faster than we expected".

I think I know which set of statistics I'd prefer to accept.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:13 pm 
jason cole wrote:
Yeah sorry about the links - I can be a lazy git at times :P

Nigel wrote:
There was a guy on SKY news last week wh oworks in the oil trade, he said BP's reserves were in excess of 13 trillion barrels, he said Shell and all the other oil companies reserves were on the same scale. He also said that there are billions of barrels undescovered around the Britich Isles. He also said that there's enough oil to last well over 150 years.

Really?

So why does BP's Statistical Report show a total proved reserves of 1390.1GB (Page 6)? In terms of production IRO 85MB/d, that equates to between 40 to 45 years (Page 10) - the so-called R/P ratio - which is a mere yardstick and doesn't take declining production (flow) rates into account.

Calling depletionists "scaremongers" sounds like Malcolm Wicks; who said in 2003 that warnings of impending North Sea gas depletion was "scaremongering", then in 2006 announced, "it's running out faster than we expected".

I think I know which set of statistics I'd prefer to accept.


I'm only going by what this guy was saying on SKY, he seemed to know his stuff.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:32 pm 
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So, is anyone prepared to come up with a realistic appraisal of when the oil wells will run dry and is anyone prepared to suggest how future UK Governments will raise the lost tax revenues from petrol? No doubt the green lobby will be happy when the pumps run dry but whats going to happen to the economy? Perhaps Gordon Brooon can advise us on what we can expect when the world runs out of oil? Or don't politicians and scientists think that far ahead, except when it comes to green house gasses?

Regards

JD

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:11 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVIwropR ... re=related

Could this be the answer


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:41 pm 
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skippy41 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVIwropRMME&feature=related

Could this be the answer


Interesting.
Do you suppose the government would have the neck to tax air? :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:08 pm 
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JD wrote:
So, is anyone prepared to come up with a realistic appraisal of when the oil wells will run dry and is anyone prepared to suggest how future UK Governments will raise the lost tax revenues from petrol?
No and no.

JD wrote:
No doubt the green lobby will be happy when the pumps run dry but whats going to happen to the economy? Perhaps Gordon Brooon can advise us on what we can expect when the world runs out of oil? Or don't politicians and scientists think that far ahead, except when it comes to green house gasses?


Politicians rarely think farther than the next election. It's cheaper and easier to tell the public there's no problem than it is to do something about it. The UK government needs to get away from the long held notion that motorists are easy prey, when it comes to raising revenue. Governments manage elsewhere and they will have to learn how to here.

Scientists do think that far ahead but tend to be constrained by company or government budgets. With hydrogen, biofuels, electric and now compressed air, there are technologies to keep us moving. The funds need to be spent to develop them to their full potential or find other technologies. Necessity is the mother of invention, so perhaps the current crisis will be the spur needed to bring these new technologies on.

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