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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:14 pm 
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And to JD, streetcars and the Honest Scotsman more generally, please note that I've only said that if they were cherry picking then there's nothing wrong with the drivers being brought to book, and indeed if they were then it's better that they are honest and admit it.

On the other hand I have commented on the evidence, but in the final analysis since we don't know precisely what the evidence was and/or whether there was corroborating evidence then it's impossible for any of us to make a definitive judgement, and of course that's not our job anyway. (for example, there seems to be conflicting evidence as to whether they put their hands up or not).

And, of course, if they wern't cherry picking then they should be allowed to get on with things without a stain on their character.

And please note that I did say that on the evidence that we know about If would have assumed that they were waiting on a booking.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:36 pm 
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Mugged by an anti-crime camera


CCTV systems installed to deter street crime are being turned on drivers, write Nicholas Rufford and Jonathan Futrell of The Sunday Times


CCTV images, left, record Jonathan Futrell pausing to pick up a friend in Albert Street. The car is stopped for less than a minute, but the result is still a fine

When a London council decided to locate a CCTV camera in a quiet area of Camden the residents were delighted, especially as its declared purpose was to make the streets safer from muggers, drug dealers, burglars and car thieves. The £25,000 swivelling spy camera made them feel they were at last getting a tangible benefit from Camden’s rising council tax.
But it didn’t take long for them to discover it was going to cost a lot more — in ways they hadn’t expected. The camera proved not very good at identifying suspects lurking in the shadows but it was very good at reading residents’ car numberplates.

Since the Albert Street camera was installed last year its operators have issued 2,558 penalty notices for a range of minor motoring offences, such as double parking to unload groceries or allegedly blocking the flow of traffic.

The fines are part of a fast-spreading “reciprocation” policy that allows anti-crime CCTV cameras in London to be used for traffic enforcement, and traffic cameras for crime control. What began as a pilot study will soon be joined by 13 London boroughs, including Westminster, which already makes annual profits in excess of £30m from the issuing of parking tickets.

Thousands of cameras installed originally to counter terrorism or robbery could end up trapping more motorists than criminals. Indeed, the use of CCTV cameras for traffic enforcement has been so successful it is likely to be taken up nationally. The Traffic Management Act sets out powers for local authorities outside London to use CCTV against drivers and the Department for Transport wants them to do so from 2008.

The number of fines is set to soar. There are many, many more CCTV cameras than traffic cameras. In some urban areas they cover every inch of tarmac. Motorists could conceivably be watched from the start of their journey to their destination and penalised for if they fail to obey a no-right-turn sign or no-U-turn sign, pass a no-entry sign or stop in the wrong place.

Councils are naturally delighted about the prospects for revenue raising; private contractors such as NCP will set up the cameras while the councils watch the money roll in. The disadvantage for motorists is that they can’t escape. Traffic cameras are usually painted bright yellow, but CCTV cameras are often on the walls of buildings and on poles above drivers’ field of vision.

Certainly the residents of Albert Street were sitting ducks. Families coming home with the weekly shop were hard-pressed to find parking spaces (the council had cut the number of residents’ bays in favour of metered parking) and so were stopping alongside cars outside their front doors to unload.

Motorists who pulled up — even for less than a minute — were sent penalty notices for double parking and demands for £100, even though some were stationary for less than the time it typically takes a taxi to drop a fare. One was fined for waiting while another motorist pulled out of a meter bay so that he could slip in. Others were fined for loading up before long journeys.

Emily Windsor, a barrister and Albert Street resident, doesn’t deny she briefly double-parked. Camden sent her pictures with the fine. “My husband was in the car, sitting in the passenger seat. We knew about the camera and thought if he stayed with the car it would be all right. I’m carrying a few boxes and I’m there in the photographs shown carrying them,” she said.

Windsor organised a petition of more than 100 residents but Camden council seemed uninterested, dismissing complainants as a vocal minority.

Tony Parsons works in advertising and has lived in Albert Street for 27 years. “On one occasion we had a car full of shopping, and on another we were trying to unload my elderly mother. There was nowhere else to park so we had to double park, but for just minutes.”

Parsons asked Camden why a camera designed to stop muggings was being used to mug residents. He was told by Mark Roe, the council’s senior community safety officer and one of those who helps administer the scheme: “In order to sustain CCTV in Camden it is essential that funds are secured to monitor and maintain the system. Therefore, there is a reciprocal arrangement that all cameras may be used for traffic enforcement and all traffic enforcement cameras be used for community safety purposes.”

Nick Lester, the director of transport for the Association of London Government, which regulates the use of CCTV for traffic enforcement, justified the cameras on the grounds that they combat congestion. He said most cameras were set up by private contractors but pictures showing alleged motoring offences were checked by council employees and stored for evidence.

So next time you’re dropping off the shopping, don’t forget to smile.

Just what offence have I committed?


I was one of those fined £100 for an alleged traffic offence, writes Jonathan Futrell (pictured). I double parked in Albert Street at 8pm on a winter’s evening with my lights on and engine running.

The time on the top right of the pictures sent by Camden council shows I stopped for 52 seconds to pick up a friend to give him a lift (strangely, Camden supports car sharing). I wasn’t in a bus lane — no buses come down my street, and I wasn’t blocking traffic because there wasn’t any.

In fact it wasn’t clear at all what laws I and other residents accused of double parking had broken. A spokesman for the council said in response to that question: “It’s not a bylaw — it’s in the Highway Code. It’s a parking contravention.” If it is, I can’t find it, and nor could any of the local people I spoke to.

Albert Street is a desirable address between Camden High Street and Regent’s Park, where three-storey white stucco Victorian homes sell for well in excess of £1m. It’s a hunting ground for law breakers, even under the watchful eye of the camera. Could it be Camden is more interested in raising revenue than preventing crime? The council recently backtracked a little, allowing a five-minute loading and unloading period. It remains to be seen whether this is workable for those with infirm relatives or those making deliveries. The concession is not necessarily permanent, nor is it an amnesty for outstanding fines.

The use of CCTV in this way reinforces the impression that councils and transport bodies are increasingly run by people who see motorists as a soft touch — too busy to dispute fines that hurt but which aren’t worth going to court over. Someone, somewhere is raking in a tidy sum.


http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/articl ... _1,00.html


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:33 am 
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TDO wrote:
And to JD, streetcars and the Honest Scotsman more generally, please note that I've only said that if they were cherry picking then there's nothing wrong with the drivers being brought to book, and indeed if they were then it's better that they are honest and admit it.

On the other hand I have commented on the evidence, but in the final analysis since we don't know precisely what the evidence was and/or whether there was corroborating evidence then it's impossible for any of us to make a definitive judgement, and of course that's not our job anyway. (for example, there seems to be conflicting evidence as to whether they put their hands up or not).

And, of course, if they wern't cherry picking then they should be allowed to get on with things without a stain on their character.

And please note that I did say that on the evidence that we know about If would have assumed that they were waiting on a booking.
MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT THESE LADS WERE GUILTY, GUILTY GUILTY
Don’t get me wrong I hate Liverpool Cherry pickers more than most. This might help you understand why, Saturday night, and you want to go home from Liverpool to the outskirts, in a normal cab it will cost you 12 pounds, in a Liverpool Cherry picker cab more often than not, the driver will want 25 to 35 pound more, depending on how desperate you are to get home, Now this is not outside the city limits, he wont have his meter on. All Highly illegal, when people get ripped off on a night especially on Friday, Saturday night they Remember the next day, the next week they don’t forget. When they need a cab during the day they don’t get a black taxi they get a Sefton Private hire car. . Why not simply use an under cover licensing officer asking to hire the cab. Why wait half an hour watching some one. Its all a sham to make it look like Licensing, are doing some thing, without the conflict of aproaching drivers . Three drivers got done it should have been thirty. But that what happens when you have a shortage of cabs. Perhaps Liverpool need another survey , one that was not bent, this time .


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:02 pm 
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streetcars wrote:
Saturday night, and you want to go home from Liverpool to the outskirts, in a normal cab it will cost you 12 pounds, in a Liverpool Cherry picker cab more often than not, the driver will want 25 to 35 pound more



I go to Liverpool twice a year to see my old buddy Phil who lives just south of New Brighton. ( :shock: )

I have to say Mr Streetcars that in the ten years he's lived there, we've never had a problem getting a Taxi back through the tunnel, nor had any arguement over the fare on the meter.

Clearly this is only two weekends a year, but its all been problem free when it comes to Taxi usage.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:14 pm 
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streetcars wrote:
Why not simply use an under cover licensing officer asking to hire the cab.


Then they'd probably start wailing about entrapment or suchlike [-(

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:18 pm 
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The Honest Scotsman wrote:
The use of CCTV in this way reinforces the impression that councils and transport bodies are increasingly run by people who see motorists as a soft touch — too busy to dispute fines that hurt but which aren’t worth going to court over. Someone, somewhere is raking in a tidy sum.




Hang 'em high, I say :twisted:

OK, some of the cases do seem excessive, but you don't need to know much about the roads to know that many drivers just please themselves what they do, then cry foul when they're brought to book.

Why don't they just follow Jimbo's example and everything would be fine?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:42 pm 
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greenbadgecabby wrote:
streetcars wrote:
Saturday night, and you want to go home from Liverpool to the outskirts, in a normal cab it will cost you 12 pounds, in a Liverpool Cherry picker cab more often than not, the driver will want 25 to 35 pound more



I go to Liverpool twice a year to see my old buddy Phil who lives just south of New Brighton. ( :shock: )

I have to say Mr Streetcars that in the ten years he's lived there, we've never had a problem getting a Taxi back through the tunnel, nor had any arguement over the fare on the meter.

Clearly this is only two weekends a year, but its all been problem free when it comes to Taxi usage.
No Mr Greenbadge its every weekend ask your mate Mr T . Ask the hundereds who phone the local radio ,contact the local press, moaning about the Liverpool Cherry pickers . Are you sure you have been to Liverpool ?. You must be a very lucky man . Next time try and get a taxi, : in Liverpool city centre at two on a Saturday night . I bet you a tenner, you have a long wait .


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:34 am 
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streetcars wrote:
in Liverpool city centre at two on a Saturday night . I bet you a tenner, you have a long wait .


Bet I won't.

I'll pre-book Mr T's Taxi. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:52 pm 
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Which one? :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:30 pm 
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Perhaps Delta were also turning them away. Can anyone cope at 2 Am Fri, Sat?

Delta turn customers away every day - but it's WHY and HOW customers are turned away that counts. If your baker turns you away because he has run out of bread... fair enough. If your baker sends you to the back of the queue just because other customers in the shop want to buy more loaves than you, then you're not likely to shop there again.

It's not just cab drivers that are guilty of cherry picking - during busy periods many private hire firms will ask where you are going before deciding whether to accept the booking or not. When Delta are fully booked in any area then ALL customers in that area are refused - including the so-called 'good' jobs.

During the early hours FRI/SAT Delta accept and dispatch over 1,000 bookings / hour (typically equating to over 3,000 passengers / hour) - none of which are discriminated against because of how far they are going or in which direction. Some of these customers will undoubtedly have been fobbed off by cherry picking cab drivers in the past.

A customer spending £2 today might be spending £10 tomorrow... but who will they choose tomorrow to drive them home...???

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:58 pm 
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deltastaff wrote:
Delta turn customers away every day


The difference between Private hire legislation and Hackney carriage legislation is that there is nothing in the 1976 act which states a Private hire operator must take a booking? Except under the DDA where it concerns discriminating against disabled persons.

The 1847 act does however stipulate under section 53 that a driver of a hackney carriage while plying for hire standing at any stand or in any street cannot refuse to drive, unless they have a reasonable cause not to?

So there lies the difference.

53 Penalty on driver for refusing to drive A driver of a hackney carriage standing at any of the stands for hackney carriages appointed by the commissioners, or in any street, who refuses or neglects, without reasonable excuse, to drive such carriage to any place within the prescribed distance, or the distance to be appointed by any byelaw of the
commissioners, not exceeding the prescribed distance, to which he is directed to drive by the person hiring or wishing to hire such carriage, shall for every such offence be liable to a penalty not exceeding [level 2 on the standard scale].


Regards

JD


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:01 pm 
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deltastaff wrote:

A customer spending £2 today might be spending £10 tomorrow... but who will they choose tomorrow to drive them home...???


I know very little about the despatch side of the trade, but isn't there software that tracks a caller's previous history in terms of fare value? Then priority could be given to the cream jobs.

Of course, I would never consider working this way myself :oops:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:04 pm 
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And the winner of avatar of the month goes to:


deltastaff =D>

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:08 pm 
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deltastaff wrote:
It's not just cab drivers that are guilty of cherry picking - during busy periods many private hire firms will ask where you are going before deciding whether to accept the booking or not.

Wouldn't it be better to just offer a long waiting time, because in time you will have drivers dropping in that area.

Also from personal experience at least a quater of my destinations are wrong, and if you use IVA then you don't get them. :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:09 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
And the winner of avatar of the month goes to:


deltastaff =D>


Can't be a real likeness surely?

Regards

JD


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