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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 4:33 pm 
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This was posted on www.aberdeentaxis.co.uk by the Aberdeen Hackney Sgt.
Quote:
I brought up this matter with the Aberdeen city solicitor in an effort to clear up the confusion once and for all. They have consulted with their counterparts in Aberdeenshire and Moray and they are all in agreement that the following is the correct interpretation of the law:

1. A taxi is allowed to either pick up or drop off outwith its licensed area providing the other part of the journey (starts or ends) in its licensed area. Therefore, an Aberdeenshire taxi can be pre-booked to pick up in Aberdeen city to return a passenger to Aberdeenshire. An Aberdeenshire taxi can also pick up in Aberdeenshire and drop off in a passenger in Aberdeen city. A taxi licensed only in Aberdeenshire cannot both pick up and drop off a hire in Aberdeen city.

2. Aberdeenshire taxis can also accept jobs which start in Aberdeen city (but end in Aberdeenshire) whilst they are either a) on a hire ending in Aberdeen, or b) returning to their area immediately after completing a hire which ended in Aberdeen. These hires can only be accepted by way of radio/telephone from the Aberdeenshire taxi's booking office. Aberdeenshire taxis cannot wait in Aberdeen city (including at taxi ranks) for a radio/telephone booking to return to Aberdeenshire.

3. Furthermore, Aberdeenshire taxis cannot be hailed in the street in Aberdeen city.

As stated above, this is the opinion of the council solicitors and it is what I will work to. My personal opinion (and I'm not saying I'm right) is that I'm not convinced that this is a correct interpretation. My reading of the legislation is that if the hire is pre-booked then part of the journey does not need to take place in the drivers own licensed area. As someone stated earlier, it may take a driver being charged with this and challenging the case in Court before we're all satisfied with the definitive legal position.


Your opinions please.

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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 4:58 pm 
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If you consider the areas as zones, its easy to work out,
If your licenced for zone 1 you can only work that zone, but if a punter phones from zone 2, you may go and pick them up even if they want to be dropped in the other zone
Now the bit where a cab from another zone cannot pick up once dropped off is also wrong if your dropping off and a punter seer's your phone number and calls the office, or the driver if using call divert, the office can designate you to pick them up, or you can if you receive the call directly.
Once dropped off in the other zone you must return to your zone if no other bookings are available, and you cannot except a flag down


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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 5:00 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
This was posted on www.aberdeentaxis.co.uk by the Aberdeen Hackney Sgt.
Quote:
I brought up this matter with the Aberdeen city solicitor in an effort to clear up the confusion once and for all. They have consulted with their counterparts in Aberdeenshire and Moray and they are all in agreement that the following is the correct interpretation of the law:

1. A taxi is allowed to either pick up or drop off outwith its licensed area providing the other part of the journey (starts or ends) in its licensed area. Therefore, an Aberdeenshire taxi can be pre-booked to pick up in Aberdeen city to return a passenger to Aberdeenshire. An Aberdeenshire taxi can also pick up in Aberdeenshire and drop off in a passenger in Aberdeen city. A taxi licensed only in Aberdeenshire cannot both pick up and drop off a hire in Aberdeen city.

2. Aberdeenshire taxis can also accept jobs which start in Aberdeen city (but end in Aberdeenshire) whilst they are either a) on a hire ending in Aberdeen, or b) returning to their area immediately after completing a hire which ended in Aberdeen. These hires can only be accepted by way of radio/telephone from the Aberdeenshire taxi's booking office. Aberdeenshire taxis cannot wait in Aberdeen city (including at taxi ranks) for a radio/telephone booking to return to Aberdeenshire.

3. Furthermore, Aberdeenshire taxis cannot be hailed in the street in Aberdeen city.

As stated above, this is the opinion of the council solicitors and it is what I will work to. My personal opinion (and I'm not saying I'm right) is that I'm not convinced that this is a correct interpretation. My reading of the legislation is that if the hire is pre-booked then part of the journey does not need to take place in the drivers own licensed area. As someone stated earlier, it may take a driver being charged with this and challenging the case in Court before we're all satisfied with the definitive legal position.


Your opinions please.


Id say it matters not a jot where the pick up or drop off points are or even if the run did not physically enter your licenced area at all.....it should be where the hire contract was taken or pre-booked that matters...so if your licenced in Aberdeen then the booking should be made directly through your business base or at least diverted to a mobile via your place of business....I cant see any reason why if your rich loyal punter wanted you to take him/her from Glasgow to Edinburgh that you cannot do it....thats the free market, but only as long as they booked it through your licenced area by phone, mobile , email or long distance smoke signal..


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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 5:20 pm 
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skippy41 wrote:
If you consider the areas as zones, its easy to work out,
They are not zones skippy, they are 3 completely separate council areas.

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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 5:21 pm 
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bloodnock wrote:
Id say it matters not a jot where the pick up or drop off points are or even if the run did not physically enter your licenced area at all.....it should be where the hire contract was taken or pre-booked that matters...so if your licenced in Aberdeen then the booking should be made directly through your business base or at least diverted to a mobile via your place of business....I cant see any reason why if your rich loyal punter wanted you to take him/her from Glasgow to Edinburgh that you cannot do it....thats the free market, but only as long as they booked it through your licenced area by phone, mobile , email or long distance smoke signal..


I agree, they have got 1 and 2 completely wrong.

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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 5:26 pm 
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21.— Offences.
(1) If any person—
31 added by Private Hire Vehicles (Carriage of Guide Dogs etc.) Act 2002 c. 37 s. 2
(Represents Current Law in Force - for pending amendments see Prospective Law on Westlaw UK.)
Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 Page 14
(a) operates, or permits the operation of, a taxi within an area in respect of which its
operation requires to be but is not licensed or the driver requires to be but is not licensed,
or
(b) picks up passengers in, or permits passengers to be picked up by, a private hire car
within an area in respect of which its operation requires to be but is not licensed or the driver
requires to be but is not licensed,
that person shall be guilty of an offence and liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding
level 4 on the standard scale.
Quote:
(2) Subsection (1) above does not apply to the operation of a taxi or private hire car within an area
in respect of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if the request for its hiring was received
by its driver (otherwise than in a public place from the person to be conveyed in it, or a person
acting on his behalf, for a journey beginning there and then) whilst—
(a) in the area or in that part thereof in respect of which its operation and its driver are
licensed;
(b) engaged on hire on a journey which began in that area or part or will end there; or
(c) returning to that area or part immediately following completion of a journey on hire.
(3) Subsection (1)(b) above does not apply to the operation of a vehicle within an area in respect
of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if there are in force—
(i) in respect of the vehicle, a licence under section 37 of the Town Police Clauses Act
1847 (licensing of hackney carriages) or section 48 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous
Provisions) Act 1976 (licensing of private hire vehicles); and
(ii) in respect of its driver, a licence under section 46 of the said Act of 1847 (licensing of
hackney carriage drivers) or, as the case may be, section 51 of the said Act of 1976 (licensing
of drivers of private hire vehicles).
[ (3A) Subsection (1)(b) above does not apply to the operation of a vehicle within an area in respect
of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if there are in force—
(a) in respect of the vehicle, a licence under section 7 of the Private Hire Vehicles (London)
Act 1998; and
(b) in respect of its driver, a licence under section 13 of that Act.
]32
(4)


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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 5:30 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
skippy41 wrote:
If you consider the areas as zones, its easy to work out,
They are not zones skippy, they are 3 completely separate council areas.


Just using zones as an example


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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:00 pm 
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skippy41 wrote:
21.— Offences.
(1) If any person—
31 added by Private Hire Vehicles (Carriage of Guide Dogs etc.) Act 2002 c. 37 s. 2
(Represents Current Law in Force - for pending amendments see Prospective Law on Westlaw UK.)
Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 Page 14
(a) operates, or permits the operation of, a taxi within an area in respect of which its
operation requires to be but is not licensed or the driver requires to be but is not licensed,
or
(b) picks up passengers in, or permits passengers to be picked up by, a private hire car
within an area in respect of which its operation requires to be but is not licensed or the driver
requires to be but is not licensed,
that person shall be guilty of an offence and liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding
level 4 on the standard scale.
Quote:
(2) Subsection (1) above does not apply to the operation of a taxi or private hire car within an area
in respect of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if the request for its hiring was received
by its driver (otherwise than in a public place from the person to be conveyed in it, or a person
acting on his behalf, for a journey beginning there and then) whilst—
(a) in the area or in that part thereof in respect of which its operation and its driver are
licensed;
(b) engaged on hire on a journey which began in that area or part or will end there; or
(c) returning to that area or part immediately following completion of a journey on hire.
(3) Subsection (1)(b) above does not apply to the operation of a vehicle within an area in respect
of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if there are in force—
(i) in respect of the vehicle, a licence under section 37 of the Town Police Clauses Act
1847 (licensing of hackney carriages) or section 48 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous
Provisions) Act 1976 (licensing of private hire vehicles); and
(ii) in respect of its driver, a licence under section 46 of the said Act of 1847 (licensing of
hackney carriage drivers) or, as the case may be, section 51 of the said Act of 1976 (licensing
of drivers of private hire vehicles).
[ (3A) Subsection (1)(b) above does not apply to the operation of a vehicle within an area in respect
of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if there are in force—
(a) in respect of the vehicle, a licence under section 7 of the Private Hire Vehicles (London)
Act 1998; and
(b) in respect of its driver, a licence under section 13 of that Act.
]32
(4)

21(2) Subsection (1) above does not apply to the operation of a taxi or private hire car within an area in respect of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if the request for its hiring was received by its driver (otherwise than in a public place from the person to be conveyed in it, or a person acting on his behalf, for a journey beginning there and then) whilst -
(a) in the area or in that part thereof in respect of which its operation and
its driver are licensed;
(b) engaged on hire on a journey which began in that area or part or will
end there; or
(c) returning to that area or part immediately following completion of a
journey on hire.

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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:13 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
skippy41 wrote:
21.— Offences.
(1) If any person—
31 added by Private Hire Vehicles (Carriage of Guide Dogs etc.) Act 2002 c. 37 s. 2
(Represents Current Law in Force - for pending amendments see Prospective Law on Westlaw UK.)
Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 Page 14
(a) operates, or permits the operation of, a taxi within an area in respect of which its
operation requires to be but is not licensed or the driver requires to be but is not licensed,
or
(b) picks up passengers in, or permits passengers to be picked up by, a private hire car
within an area in respect of which its operation requires to be but is not licensed or the driver
requires to be but is not licensed,
that person shall be guilty of an offence and liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding
level 4 on the standard scale.
Quote:
(2) Subsection (1) above does not apply to the operation of a taxi or private hire car within an area
in respect of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if the request for its hiring was received
by its driver (otherwise than in a public place from the person to be conveyed in it, or a person
acting on his behalf, for a journey beginning there and then) whilst—
(a) in the area or in that part thereof in respect of which its operation and its driver are
licensed;
(b) engaged on hire on a journey which began in that area or part or will end there; or
(c) returning to that area or part immediately following completion of a journey on hire.
(3) Subsection (1)(b) above does not apply to the operation of a vehicle within an area in respect
of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if there are in force—
(i) in respect of the vehicle, a licence under section 37 of the Town Police Clauses Act
1847 (licensing of hackney carriages) or section 48 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous
Provisions) Act 1976 (licensing of private hire vehicles); and
(ii) in respect of its driver, a licence under section 46 of the said Act of 1847 (licensing of
hackney carriage drivers) or, as the case may be, section 51 of the said Act of 1976 (licensing
of drivers of private hire vehicles).
[ (3A) Subsection (1)(b) above does not apply to the operation of a vehicle within an area in respect
of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if there are in force—
(a) in respect of the vehicle, a licence under section 7 of the Private Hire Vehicles (London)
Act 1998; and
(b) in respect of its driver, a licence under section 13 of that Act.
]32
(4)

21(2) Subsection (1) above does not apply to the operation of a taxi or private hire car within an area in respect of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if the request for its hiring was received by its driver whilst -
(a) in the area or in that part thereof in respect of which its operation and
its driver are licensed;



IMO that clears the way to take any booking to and from anywhere you like providing the booking came through your area by whatever means of communication you use just as long as it is pre booked...seeeeeeeemple!!


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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:17 pm 
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Basically what Blood and I have said without all the techy stuff


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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:22 pm 
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bloodnock wrote:
gusmac wrote:
skippy41 wrote:
21.— Offences.
(1) If any person—
31 added by Private Hire Vehicles (Carriage of Guide Dogs etc.) Act 2002 c. 37 s. 2
(Represents Current Law in Force - for pending amendments see Prospective Law on Westlaw UK.)
Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 Page 14
(a) operates, or permits the operation of, a taxi within an area in respect of which its
operation requires to be but is not licensed or the driver requires to be but is not licensed,
or
(b) picks up passengers in, or permits passengers to be picked up by, a private hire car
within an area in respect of which its operation requires to be but is not licensed or the driver
requires to be but is not licensed,
that person shall be guilty of an offence and liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding
level 4 on the standard scale.
Quote:
(2) Subsection (1) above does not apply to the operation of a taxi or private hire car within an area
in respect of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if the request for its hiring was received
by its driver (otherwise than in a public place from the person to be conveyed in it, or a person
acting on his behalf, for a journey beginning there and then) whilst—
(a) in the area or in that part thereof in respect of which its operation and its driver are
licensed;
(b) engaged on hire on a journey which began in that area or part or will end there; or
(c) returning to that area or part immediately following completion of a journey on hire.
(3) Subsection (1)(b) above does not apply to the operation of a vehicle within an area in respect
of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if there are in force—
(i) in respect of the vehicle, a licence under section 37 of the Town Police Clauses Act
1847 (licensing of hackney carriages) or section 48 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous
Provisions) Act 1976 (licensing of private hire vehicles); and
(ii) in respect of its driver, a licence under section 46 of the said Act of 1847 (licensing of
hackney carriage drivers) or, as the case may be, section 51 of the said Act of 1976 (licensing
of drivers of private hire vehicles).
[ (3A) Subsection (1)(b) above does not apply to the operation of a vehicle within an area in respect
of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if there are in force—
(a) in respect of the vehicle, a licence under section 7 of the Private Hire Vehicles (London)
Act 1998; and
(b) in respect of its driver, a licence under section 13 of that Act.
]32
(4)

21(2) Subsection (1) above does not apply to the operation of a taxi or private hire car within an area in respect of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if the request for its hiring was received by its driver whilst -
(a) in the area or in that part thereof in respect of which its operation and
its driver are licensed;



IMO that clears the way to take any booking to and from anywhere you like providing the booking came through your area by whatever means of communication you use just as long as it pre booked...seeeeeeeemple!!


Nothing to do with how the driver gets the booking. (Radio, phone, semaphore or ESP)
It's all to do with where the driver is when he accepts it.
    1 Inside his licenced area
    2 Outside his licensed area with a job onboard from his licenced area.
    3 Returning directly to his licensed area after completing a hire mentioned in 2 above

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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:48 pm 
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Guss we need to call in the Liberal party here, as its one of those out of date laws or rules, that does not take account of modern technology


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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 8:29 pm 
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skippy41 wrote:
Guss we need to call in the Liberal party here, as its one of those out of date laws or rules, that does not take account of modern technology


The technology isn't the problem here, the law is very clear IMHO.

It was clearly the intention of parliament to disallow cross border hiring, except in the limited circumstances outlined above. These do give some scope to operate outside your licenced area on an occasional basis.
It was never the intention of parliament to allow the majority of your work to come from another licensed area.
The point seems to me that if you want to work that area, you should be licensed there.

Getting back to the point of my original post - Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire and Moray legal departments seem to have rewritten the law to suit themselves and are attempting to criminalise behaviour which the law of Scotland has no problem with.

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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 8:49 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
As stated above, this is the opinion of the council solicitors and it is what I will work to. My personal opinion (and I'm not saying I'm right) is that I'm not convinced that this is a correct interpretation. My reading of the legislation is that if the hire is pre-booked then part of the journey does not need to take place in the drivers own licensed area. As someone stated earlier, it may take a driver being charged with this and challenging the case in Court before we're all satisfied with the definitive legal position.

A licensed taxi and a PH can pick up where they want, and drop off where they want, when they want and how they want (with the proviso that taxis pick up off the streets in their area, and PH don't).

What I would ask the Aberdeen City solicitor is what he would do in this scenario.

A driver licensed in area A gets a radio job from area B coming back to area A. Now that ticks the Aberdeen City solicitor box, and everything is fine and dandy.

However on the way back from area B, the customer tells the driver from area A that he has changed his mind and wants to be taken to area C.

Does the driver boot the customer out? :?

In short the Aberdeen City solicitor hasn't got a f***ing clue. One wonders if he has a brother working in Edinburgh. :roll: :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 12:54 am 
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no but he has a predecessor !!


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