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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:13 pm 
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Why Scotland Should Vote ‘Yes’ to Independence
by Harry Paterson
26 March 2013

Dissolve the four hundred year unity of the crowns, throw out the British influence and let Scotland be independent! Because let's be honest, the Brits have hardly worked things out...

Next year, on Thursday 18th September, to be precise, the electorate in Scotland will be given the option of going to the polls to cast their vote on a historic question: “Should Scotland be an independent country?”

The dissolving of the four hundred year-unity of the crowns and the three hundred years-plus of the union of the Scottish and English parliaments could well be a reality.

The debate, thus far, and the campaigns by both the ‘yes’ and ‘no’ camps have been hotly fought and the usual rhetoric has generated, possibly, considerably more heat than light. The view common in the English media, in so far that anyone there actually cares about such a potentially seismic move in our shared existence, has amounted to little more than anti-Scottish bile and a yawning chasm of ignorance; factually inaccurate jibes about ‘Tartan Scroungers’ and the mythically enormous subsidy Scotland receives from her poor exploited neighbour abound. As do tales of the largesse on which the Scottish people live like lairds. As the English electorate aren’t entitled to a vote, though, such views require no further examination.

One place where the fighting is fiercest has been among Labour supporters and those to the left of Labour; which, these days, is pretty much 90% of everyone outside the Tory party and their supporters.

The question of independence has seen Labour lining up alongside the Conservative party and pleading for a continuation of unionist government and rule by London. In a country where there are more Chinese Pandas than Conservative MPs, this has, understandably, gone down about as well as a walkabout on Merseyside by Kelvin Mackenzie.

While the Tories have hammered all parts of the United Kingdom’s working class, nowhere else on the island have they done so with such a breathtaking lack of consensus. The democratic deficit that exists in Scotland is simply enormous; year after year, decade after decade polices expressly designed to enrich, still further, the wealthiest at the expense of those least able to afford it, have been ruthlessly carried through in a country which has consistently, overwhelmingly and democratically rejected them. Yet still Scotland is ruled by her London-based overlords. And Labour’s campaign amounts to what? Little more than asking Scotland to allow this to continue, basically. Not an overstatement to say, as incentives go, that Labour’s pitiful case is laughable.

It is this rejection of Conservative ‘values’ that drives the ‘Yes’ campaign. In contrast to English nationalism, which has been defined by Empire, the ruling class and the far right, BNP, EDL etc, nationalism north of the border is significantly lacking in the virulent racism and bigotry of its neighbour to the south. A yearning for egalitarianism and the sort of progressive social democracy long abandoned by Labour, both New and Blue alike, is what fuels the ‘Yes’ campaign.

There is, however, a hard and glaring logic to the Labour campaign. Simply that under current conditions, and the UK’s first past the post system of electing governments, there is a very real danger that if Scotland leaves the union, what remains of the UK will be doomed to permanent Tory rule. Sounds absolutely horrifying, doesn’t it? A closer examination of the facts, though, suggests that, in practical terms not a lot would change for England, Wales and the Six Counties. After all, with barely a cigarette paper between the Tory party and Blue Labour, in policy terms, who’s going to notice a difference? A decade plus of New Labour rule gave us imperialist war at America’s behest, PFI, welfare ‘reforms,’ which the current administration have merely carried through to their logical conclusion, deregulation of the City, a party “intensely relaxed” about obscene wealth concentrated in fewer and fewer hands and the Tories’ anti-TU and draconian employment legislation left intact. The current manifestation, Blue Labour, can’t even bring themselves to vote against the Coalition’s despicable retrospective legislation and the brutal kicking of the poor. In fact, on the same day that vote occurred, they suspended three of their own councillors for voting against the ruling Labour Group’s austerity budget!

Apart from anything else, those of us living in England, exiled Scots, natural-born Englishmen and immigrant alike, will have the same choice we’ve always had under both high-handed Tory and unprincipled Labour rule; do something about it and rebel, either at the ballot box or, preferably, on the streets.

Blue Labour’s campaign is nothing but a fight for political survival and hell mend them, frankly. Had they been doing the job they were historically created to do, they’d need not fear Scottish independence.

So much for Blue Labour then and the case is clear; A ‘Yes’ vote would see Scotland free from both Tory rule and the spineless, ineffectual handwringing of the utterly useless official ‘opposition’. In fact, a 29-year old journalist and rank-and-file party member is a far more effective opposition and Owen Jones isn’t even an MP. Yet…

But would things be any better under the SNP? Well, as an old psychology adage has it, the best predicator of future behaviour is past and present behaviour. So free university education, prescriptions, travel for the elderly, a commitment that none of its councils will evict anyone for non-payment of the hated ‘Bedroom Tax’ to name just a few of the SNP’s achievements, might be a pointer to an independent Scotland ruled by the SNP (should they win the post-independence election, of course). Small pickings, sure, but compared to Blue Labour’s supine and craven capitulation to Tory orthodoxy, it’s virtually the Communist Manifesto. Much more importantly, it’s a concrete sign from the former ‘Tartan Tories’ that they are shrewdly listening to the working class base of the Scottish electorate, something Labour patently does not. Social values and the needs of the people are rated far higher than by the Westminster establishment. Of course harbouring too many illusions in Salmond and co would be foolish. They’re politicians, after all, and as wedded to neoliberalism as the other main parties.

Incredibly, all of that seems to have escaped most of the Brit hard left who have ended up on the same side of the debate as the Tories and Blue Labour. Sepia-tinged Bolshevik scripture, stripped of context and place, is recycled to justify the position. ‘One State, One Party’, cry the comrades, as they denigrate the Scottish Socialist Party, Scottish Republican Socialist Party and other socialists north of the border. I know; I used to say the same thing myself. It’s nonsense, though. If you’re a revolutionary socialist, you’d actually reject the very real weakening of the Brit state simply because it falls short of its outright destruction? Really? Lunacy, frankly.

Also, the historic unity of the British working class will be severed, we’re told. Again, utter nonsense. Why on earth should it be? Nothing is stopping such unity continuing via trade unions and other associations. People in the UK refusing to send aid and get involved with campaigns to help the beleaguered Palestinians simply because they aren’t part of the UK are somewhat thin on the ground, you might have noticed…

No one on the left who is supporting the ‘Yes’ campaign is under any illusion that independence will lead to a glorious socialist paradise but a more equitable society than that which currently exists is a very real possibility. However, there is a much more fundamental imperative, a much more noble and inalienable truth underpinning the ‘Yes’ campaign: simply that all nations should have the right to self-determination. The Brit left can, and does, support national liberation struggles all over the world. Why not the one on its door-step?

For all of the above and because “It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours, that we are fighting, but for freedom – for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself” Scotland should vote ‘Yes’ next year.

http://sabotagetimes.com/reportage/why- ... ependence/

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:24 pm 
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For all of the above and because “It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours, that we are fighting, but for freedom – for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself” Scotland should vote ‘Yes’ next year


What a load of old Romantic Short bread tin Drivel....You would have thought we were being subjected to mass Genocide at the hands of the English.

Very few of we Scots are going to put our wealth, health and pension at risk just to appease a few braveheart fanatics...we need to stay part of a successful and proven United Kingdom and not be lured into some dubious heiland Shangri La where wee Eck shits sunbeams and Nicola Sturgeon lays Golden Fish eggs..... #-o


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:57 pm 
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bloodnock wrote:
....You would have thought we were being subjected to mass Genocide at the hands of the English.



The English managed that after the bonnie prince

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:20 pm 
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bloodnock wrote:

What a load of old Romantic Short bread tin Drivel....You would have thought we were being subjected to mass Genocide at the hands of the English.

Very few of we Scots are going to put our wealth, health and pension at risk just to appease a few braveheart fanatics...we need to stay part of a successful and proven United Kingdom and not be lured into some dubious heiland Shangri La where wee Eck shits sunbeams and Nicola Sturgeon lays Golden Fish eggs..... #-o


The sad thing is you probably believe the [edited by admin] you speak.

It's got nothing to do with braveheart, very little to do with shortbread, a bit to do with whisky and oil but, more than anything, it's got to do with our wealth, health and pensions and only a complete imbecile would trust any of them to the Tories' tender mercies.

BTW is Bloodnock some lowland dialect for imbecile?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:32 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
bloodnock wrote:
....You would have thought we were being subjected to mass Genocide at the hands of the English.



The English managed that after the bonnie prince


Indeed they did, aided and abetted by many Scots. :shock: But was that any worse than Wallace did to York?
Anyway, this is about the present and future, not the past.
It's idiots like bloodnock who harp on about the past, because they have no vision for the future.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:15 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
captain cab wrote:
bloodnock wrote:
....You would have thought we were being subjected to mass Genocide at the hands of the English.



The English managed that after the bonnie prince


Indeed they did, aided and abetted by many Scots. :shock: But was that any worse than Wallace did to York?
Anyway, this is about the present and future, not the past.
It's idiots like bloodnock who harp on about the past, because they have no vision for the future.


Thats Ripe....It's you that harps on and on about the past, I just look forward to a decent way of life in a decent United Kingdom that comprises of more than just Scotland.

Maybe I'm not suffering the same delusions of Scottish Nationalistic grandeur that you seem prone to.

Luckily there are more right thinking people in Scotland that think as I do than there is wrong thinking people that follow your vision of Scottish Isolationism, It's a done deal Gus, we are going to be Part of the United Kingdom for the Rest of our Lives and that's as good as it's going to get.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:42 pm 
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bloodnock wrote:

Thats Ripe....It's you that harps on and on about the past, I just look forward to a decent way of life in a decent United Kingdom that comprises of more than just Scotland.


:lol: That's a good one. It's only been 306 years, can we expect it anytime soon?

No bloodnock, it's you and the other cannies that keep bleating on about shortbread and Braveheart, tartan and heather, sausage rolls and scotty dogs.
That's because you've nothing to offer the debate except doom, gloom and fear. #-o

Quote:
Maybe I'm not suffering the same delusions of Scottish Nationalistic grandeur that you seem prone to.

Your clearly suffering from some form of delusion.

    "a decent way of life in a decent United Kingdom"

Jesus, that's a thigh slapper. :badgrin:

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Luckily there are more right thinking people in Scotland that think as I do than there is wrong thinking people that follow your vision of Scottish Isolationism,


Right thinking?
You are clearly mad. Get help bloodnock, before your fellow right thinkers sell off the NHS.

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It's a done deal Gus, we are going to be Part of the United Kingdom for the Rest of our Lives and that's as good as it's going to get.


I rest my case. No vision and no hope.

Just as good as it gets. You ain't seen nothing yet.
Wait till you find out your pension has been gambled away by your right thinking friends in the City, and your UK is bankrupt because your right thinking political friends have bankrupted the nation to bail them out.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:26 am 
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gusmac wrote:
bloodnock wrote:

Thats Ripe....It's you that harps on and on about the past, I just look forward to a decent way of life in a decent United Kingdom that comprises of more than just Scotland.


:lol: That's a good one. It's only been 306 years, can we expect it anytime soon?

No bloodnock, it's you and the other cannies that keep bleating on about shortbread and Braveheart, tartan and heather, sausage rolls and scotty dogs.
That's because you've nothing to offer the debate except doom, gloom and fear. #-o

Quote:
Maybe I'm not suffering the same delusions of Scottish Nationalistic grandeur that you seem prone to.

Your clearly suffering from some form of delusion.

    "a decent way of life in a decent United Kingdom"

Jesus, that's a thigh slapper. :badgrin:

Quote:
Luckily there are more right thinking people in Scotland that think as I do than there is wrong thinking people that follow your vision of Scottish Isolationism,


Right thinking?
You are clearly mad. Get help bloodnock, before your fellow right thinkers sell off the NHS.

Quote:
It's a done deal Gus, we are going to be Part of the United Kingdom for the Rest of our Lives and that's as good as it's going to get.


I rest my case. No vision and no hope.

Just as good as it gets. You ain't seen nothing yet.
Wait till you find out your pension has been gambled away by your right thinking friends in the City, and your UK is bankrupt because your right thinking political friends have bankrupted the nation to bail them out.
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Blaming our English neighbours for all your woes is pathetic.

You Indy types are shitting cobs right now because you know as well as I know that independence is not going to happen because the Pro UK Scots vastly outgun, out vote and out number the Indy crew, you can use any feeble argument you can think of out of utter desperation, but it'll all be for nowt ... :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:30 am 
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bloodnock wrote:

Blaming our English neighbours for all your woes is pathetic.



Didnae see far he blaming the english :? :?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:01 am 
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wizzkid wrote:
bloodnock wrote:

Blaming our English neighbours for all your woes is pathetic.



Didnae see far he blaming the english :? :?


Well spotted. I don't blame the English.


    The Scorpion and the Frog

    A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
    scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
    frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion
    says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

    The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
    the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
    paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
    but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

    Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."

If the situation were reversed, I have no doubt we would have treated them as they did us.
That's human nature..........

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:27 am 
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bloodnock wrote:
Blaming our English neighbours for all your woes is pathetic.


As I said, I don't blame the English. It just suits you to believe I do.
Pathetic is someone like you who tells us we are better off having our country run by others, yet can't actually make a decent case for it.
The best you cannaes have got are "Salmond is a fat bastard", and a bunch of scare stories.
If your precious union was worth more than tuppence ha'penny, you'd be falling over yourselves to tell us why were better off, and you wouldn't have to make it up.

Quote:
You Indy types are shitting cobs right now because you know as well as I know that independence is not going to happen because the Pro UK Scots vastly outgun, out vote and out number the Indy crew, you can use any feeble argument you can think of out of utter desperation, but it'll all be for nowt ... :lol:


You may think we have a feeble argument but we beg to differ. :shock:
Regardless, at least we have an argument. You do not. #-o

You've waited a lifetime to live in a Tory paradise and just when you've got all three main parties singing off the Tory hymn sheet, your own pesky countrymen (The ones who watch Braveheart and eat shortie) look like they're going to pull the plug on you. :shock:

The English don't really give a stuff. We are the fly in their Tory ointment.
The only ones shitting themselves are you cannaes. Your fear grows by the day and it shows every time you post.
:badgrin: :badgrin: :badgrin: :badgrin:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:03 am 
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gusmac wrote:
bloodnock wrote:
Blaming our English neighbours for all your woes is pathetic.


As I said, I don't blame the English. It just suits you to believe I do.
Pathetic is someone like you who tells us we are better off having our country run by others, yet can't actually make a decent case for it.
The best you cannaes have got are "Salmond is a fat bastard", and a bunch of scare stories.
If your precious union was worth more than tuppence ha'penny, you'd be falling over yourselves to tell us why were better off, and you wouldn't have to make it up.

Quote:
You Indy types are shitting cobs right now because you know as well as I know that independence is not going to happen because the Pro UK Scots vastly outgun, out vote and out number the Indy crew, you can use any feeble argument you can think of out of utter desperation, but it'll all be for nowt ... :lol:


You may think we have a feeble argument but we beg to differ. :shock:
Regardless, at least we have an argument. You do not. #-o

You've waited a lifetime to live in a Tory paradise and just when you've got all three main parties singing off the Tory hymn sheet, your own pesky countrymen (The ones who watch Braveheart and eat shortie) look like they're going to pull the plug on you. :shock:

The English don't really give a stuff. We are the fly in their Tory ointment.
The only ones shitting themselves are you cannaes. Your fear grows by the day and it shows every time you post.
:badgrin: :badgrin: :badgrin: :badgrin:



well, time will tell.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:55 pm 
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I do not see as to why people are allowing themselves to be caught up in the hype.

Whether you are English,Scottish,Welsh or Irish, you/I are never going to benefit from what is basically a pipe dream.

We virtually had a Scottish government in the guise of Bliar and Brown.........say no more! We have our (unfortunate) Kinnock who along with family in tow has pillaged Brussels with nice little extremely well paid jobs............say no more. We have Cammeroon and the posh boys giving their pals a 250K rise through taxation...........say no more. On the Irish side I do not know much, but one thing is for sure, you/I will be able to say.............say no more.

The bottom line is that I am still waiting after being told that we would benefit from cheap North sea Gas. Does anyone remember that they changed the gas from "Coal gas" that was in every house in the land, to then burn North sea Gas............you will have it cheaper they said. They will lie to you at every given opportunity to get their way, and then lie even more when the goods do not turn up as promised.

Do any of you honestly believe that the North sea Oil is going to become the property of Scotland over night? That you will then become the Dubai of the North? I think some need to take a trip to Costa and smell the coffee - there would be BIG fingers in every pie and you will not get anywhere near to sniffing that pie . Politics is so corrupt that you and I are NEVER really going to benefit from decisions, as to whether you are in, Or as to whether you are out - do not get het up over it, as you only have a dream that fairy tales are made out of.

Turn your back to them just like many did to Thatchers coffin, show your contempt for their lies, and the promises that they will NOT deliver.

Do not forget the saying or something similar, that goes along the lines of.............."If you think that your vote counted, do you think that they would let you have it?". It is no more than a tool to get you and I, to put them where they want us!!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:08 pm 
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cabby john wrote:
I do not see as to why people are allowing themselves to be caught up in the hype.

Whether you are English,Scottish,Welsh or Irish, you/I are never going to benefit from what is basically a pipe dream.

We virtually had a Scottish government in the guise of Bliar and Brown.........say no more! We have our (unfortunate) Kinnock who along with family in tow has pillaged Brussels with nice little extremely well paid jobs............say no more. We have Cammeroon and the posh boys giving their pals a 250K rise through taxation...........say no more. On the Irish side I do not know much, but one thing is for sure, you/I will be able to say.............say no more.

The bottom line is that I am still waiting after being told that we would benefit from cheap North sea Gas. Does anyone remember that they changed the gas from "Coal gas" that was in every house in the land, to then burn North sea Gas............you will have it cheaper they said. They will lie to you at every given opportunity to get their way, and then lie even more when the goods do not turn up as promised.

Do any of you honestly believe that the North sea Oil is going to become the property of Scotland over night? That you will then become the Dubai of the North? I think some need to take a trip to Costa and smell the coffee - there would be BIG fingers in every pie and you will not get anywhere near to sniffing that pie . Politics is so corrupt that you and I are NEVER really going to benefit from decisions, as to whether you are in, Or as to whether you are out - do not get het up over it, as you only have a dream that fairy tales are made out of.

Turn your back to them just like many did to Thatchers coffin, show your contempt for their lies, and the promises that they will NOT deliver.

Do not forget the saying or something similar, that goes along the lines of.............."If you think that your vote counted, do you think that they would let you have it?". It is no more than a tool to get you and I, to put them where they want us!!


Just lie back and think of England eh?

No thanks. [-X

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:58 pm 
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I think England would be better off with an Independant Scotland.

All we need is a few longer pipes to bring the oil down south. :D

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