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 Post subject: Re: Money on a plate?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 3:52 am 
Anonymous wrote:
If consumer transparency where the issue then perhaps the sale of licences should also be transparent. Perhaps those licenses that are for sale should be advertised by the council and sold with a health warning saying that the council reserve the right to deregulate Taxi numbers as and when they see fit. The licence holder would get his money and the purchaser would get fair warning as to the councils intent. We all know that’s not going to happen so it takes us back to my original comment about not parting with your money until you are satisfied its safe to do so.

Transparency in the sense of buying a licence resides in the buyers own knowledge of whether he understands section 16 of the 1985 Transport act, EU articles 81, 82 and 86 and last but not least the GATT agreement. The latter two are purely based on competition and are closely linked to what the OFT original enquiry was all about. Article 82 is the main plank of legislation, which overrides section 16 of the Transport act.



Yes, I think that's kind of the argument I was trying to make John, I'm not really sure if you are agreeing with me or not.

I very much doubt if many purchasers of licenses know anything about any of the stuff you mention above - I'd certainly never heard of the GATs proposal before you mentioned it.

But many in the trade knew about the Govt's RRA proposal two years ago to de-restrict nationally, and of course the OFT investigation was launched a few months later, but many did not even know about that. Now that it has been published then more do know, but there still seems to be those that don't.

My point is that the market is unfair when there is such ignorance of the market, particulary when the seller often has more information than the buyer.

Many people take the caveat emptor view, ie that the buyer should take steps to know what's going on, and if not then tough, but governments offer protection to 'vulnerable' consumers in umpteen other areas (such as consumers of taxi services!), so I don't see why the difficult area of taxi plates should be any different. If it might not save people from their own foohardiness, then it might at least put govts in a better position if they did decide to de-limit.

A good example is the Scottish Executive consultation on the trade, which was published shortly before the OFT study commenced - not only did it completely ignore the issue of restricted taxi numbers, it also proposed extending this to PH!

You might have thougth that they would have considered things like the RRA proposal for England and Wales, the EU law that you mention and the GATS proposal, but in view of what the consultation didn't say, and the PH proposal, we might be forgiven for thinking that they didn't have a clue about these things, so what hope for the average plate purchaser?

Dusty


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:40 am 
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Anonymous wrote:
I'm sure everyone interested in this debate knows that so far there have been no challenges on licence refusal based on European law, especially article 82.


I'm not really sure about the applicability of EU law John, maybe you have more information.

The main EU competition law provisions are Articles 81 and 82, but these only apply to 'undertakings' as far as I know, which basically amounts to private sompanies, and pubic regulatory authorities like LAs are generally exempt. In any case, EU competition law generally only applies to things affecting trade between states, so this would not apply to domestic taxi regulation.

However, these two main provisions were enacted into UK law to deal with domestic competition issues in the Competition Act 1998. The Chapter I prohibition relates to cartels (eg the Argos and football shirts cases) and the Chapter II relates to abuse of a dominant position (eg the Aberdeen Journals case last year, where they sold at a loss to prevent a competitor starting up).

But the 1998 Act still doesnt' apply to public regulatory bodies such as LAs carrying out taxi licensing functions - if it did, then clearly restricted numbers policies would be no more.

But there is an interesting provision in the EU treaty, which may be the one you are getting at - Article 86 says that where Member states have granted exclusive rights to undertakings (such as restricted taxi numbers) the Member states musn't have in place any measures contrary to the Treaty.

So if there is any mileage in this then it must come down to whether the restricted numbers are accompanied by measures contrary to the rest of the treaty.

I'm certainly nothing more than an amateur on this, and maybe you have more information, but I find it difficut to think of how restricted numbers might in some way breach the treaty - restricted numbers per se would presumably not constitute a breach, since Art 86 clearly envisages that an additional step of some kind is required. One interesting case is Hofner, where the German state gave exclusive rights to a state employment agency, which was OK in terms of Art 86, but since it could not satisfy demand (sounds familiar) then it breached Art 82.

So to the extent that the number of taxis licensed by UK LAs must satisfy demand then that principle would not be relevant, but of course there might be other forms of abuse that could constitute a breach - if anyone has heard anything then that would be interesting.

Another interesting aspect of Art 86 was metioned in the Irish de-restiction case - although EU law was not required for the settlement of the case, the judge did make some comments about its possible applicability.

He said that a scheme to give new licenses only to existing license holders might breach the non-discrimination rules and principles under EU law, because it indirectly disciminated against foreign nationals. Also, that these exclusive rights given would come under Art 86 and the grant of the additional license might constitute an abuse contrary to Art 82.

But he did admit that his view might be a bit extreme, and it's also interesting that the case concerned the grant of new licenses to existing holders, and not restricted numbers per se.

Dusty


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 Post subject: Re: Money on a plate?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:21 am 
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Anonymous wrote:
but I expect future challenges will not be based on section 16 of the 1985 Transport act they will probably be based on article 82 of EU competition law and the GATT agreement. With GATT, the appeal is conducted by an appeals panel in Geneva, there is no recourse by law, once they have made a decision it is final.



Interesting stuff John, I'd never heard of this before you mentioned it, I don't know how much you know, but for the benefit of anyone else who might not know about it, a few words might be appropriate :)

It all seems very complicated, but the essence seems to be that World Trade Organisation (WTO) negotiations on liberalising trade in services has been taking place under the General Agreement on Trade and Services (GATS - not to be confused with the GATT - the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trades, which was replaced by the WTO).

These negotiations could result in measures that impinge on LAs' powers to control taxi numbers under the Transport Act. In 2002 the DTI issued a consultation document - this is quite a lengthy and complex affair, but the document did give taxis a brief mention:

"...the UK maintains an economic needs test in relation to taxi services, allowing LAs to limit the number of licensed taxis in any area (we would welcome views on whether this is still needed)."

Funny that, I've never heard any mention of it in the trade, they obviously didn't ask many people for their views!.

Anyway, quite what the current relevance of this is I don't know, presumably no final agreement has been made Do you have any more info John.

Of course the WTO and suchlike make the the likes of the DfT and OFT seem like they are sprinting, and didn't the last round of the WTO talks in Cancun(?) break down? In any case, it woudn't be surprising if it was years before the GATS had any legal relevance to the UK taxi trade, and it may be academic by then anyway!

One thing that springs to mind is that a major sticking point in world trade talks is the disputes between the US and the rest of the world over steel tariffs and agricultural subsidies etc. In this regard it's interesting that the New York taxi medallion market is worth $3 billion, and I somehow doubt if they will be keen to see this disappear - apparently the medallion lobby finances people like the feted ex-mayor Rudolph Guiliani, for example, but that's US politics.

Dusty :?


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 Post subject: Re: Money on a plate?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 7:33 pm 
Dusty Bin wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
but I expect future challenges will not be based on section 16 of the 1985 Transport act they will probably be based on article 82 of EU competition law and the GATT agreement. With GATT, the appeal is conducted by an appeals panel in Geneva, there is no recourse by law, once they have made a decision it is final.


Quote:
Interesting stuff John, I'd never heard of this before you mentioned it, I don't know how much you know, but for the benefit of anyone else who might not know about it, a few words might be appropriate :)

Dusty :?


The thing about GATS is that it is so far removed from Taxi licensing no one realises the potential it could eventually have on all aspects of local Governement.

You may wonder why Local Authorities are running scared of the World Trade organisation and its GATS policy. I suppose most of you are wondering what GATS is. You may also wonder as I did, what the hell has the WTO got to do with Taxi Licensing. Well it is significant that some local Authorities seem to think that GATS will render them impotent when it comes to implementing licensing restrictions. If it is significant for local Authorities to voice concerns, it should be significant for you to understand how it could effect your future.

Quote:
In short GATS is a world Trade organisation agreement designed to remove Barriers to trade in services.


Because there is so much detail involved in the WTO "General Agreement on Trade in Services" known as (GATS) detailed comment and a full analysis would take too long to administer. To condense the implications I will outline the structure of the WTO and inform you of the concerns voiced by certain councils with regard to local Authority Licensing.

The World Trade Organisation was founded in 1995 superceding GATT, the "General Agreement on Tariff and Trades". GATT had been in place for nearly fifty years and was looked on by most sceptic observers as a forum for world trade disaster.

The WTO however is a more cohesive organisation and has a structure that is binding on all affiliated members. 146 member countries make up this trade organisation and each one is bound by the trading regulations contained within the rules of the Organisations continually evolving charter.

Trading disputes which, arise between member countries and cannot be resolved are subject to two forms of arbitration. The first phase is instigated by a request from either of the disputing countries to set up a WTO tribunal. This normally takes the form of a three-man committee of investigation and arbitration.

If either of the disputing countries disagree with the outcome of the tribunal, they have one appeal process, once that process is complete the decision of the appeal board is final.

The key word in the GATS Agreement is "Services" in the past, world trade has mostly been centered on "GOODS". The Introduction of the word services into the charter of the WTO through GATS has opened up a whole new sector in the movement of Export service Trade.

The GATS agreement and that's exactly what it is, an agreement between member countries, is binding. The UK is signed up to GATS therefore its implications could ultimately have an effect on the way services are administered. The WTO is primarily about Export so it may be confusing to you and I when certain councils refer to GATS as being a hindrance in their ability to administer Taxi Licensing. To get to the point of licensing I'll let you read what Reading Council had to say about GATS in reference to Taxi Licensing.
Quote:

Land and Other Transport Services:
We welcome the opportunity to comment on the role of Local Authorities and Taxi Licensing. The key principle here is that any alteration under GATS would remove the discretion of locally elected bodies to manage their Taxi regulation as part of an Integrated Transport Policy in accordance with local circumstances. Although deregulation is and should remain an option, this must be at the discretion of local authorities, as a GATS discipline in this area would take away the choice and limit policy available policy alternatives.

Whilst recognising the deregulated nature of the public transport arena in the UK, particularly in regard to buses and public service subsidy, we would like to caution against embedding certain forms of deregulation within GATS disciplines. Such a move would remove from the control of elected bodies the ability to alter inappropriate deregulation (as has proven necessary in the case of rail


One of the most enlightening documents published with regard to GATS is the one published by Friends of the Earth. They state,
Quote:
Transport.
The public transport system in the UK is already highly deregulated. However, the use of subsidies to ensure that certain routes are operated could be challenged by a competing mode of transport as a distortion of trade. The use of regulations to ensure health and safety could also be challenged if those regulations were considered to be more burdensome than necessary, probably compared to the regulations applied in other countries. The role of Network Rail in directly providing a range of track services could be challenged as the same service was previously provided by a private sector company. The current system of taxi regulation is already under consideration by the Office of Fair Trading which could seek to remove any rules that restrict the number of operators and other ‘burdensome’ requirements thus ensuring that the sector complies with GATS commitments. Finally, the increasing use of design build operate contracts for the provision of roads could ultimately be used to pose some interesting challenges in the form of private proposals to build new roads.

Because GATS is still in its infancy its potential to evolve can never be underestimated. The EU commission could decide to open up a service sector at any time they please. This would take the form of unrestricted Market access. This obviously means what it says, "Unrestricted access to an otherwise restricted market". This is why some councils are voicing concern about losing their ability to regulate licensing.

"Now here is the nub of the matter".
If restrictions are removed in a certain sector which allows full market access, that sector then becomes available to all" not just those who wish to export services from a foreign country.

Therein lie the implications.

There are lots of things going on which may effect your future, so look at the bigger picture and don't get caught up in what is in effect the Taxi and Private hire goldfish bowl.

I'll post some links later if anyone wishes to read up on the implications of GATS.

Best Wishes.

John Davies.
Manchester.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 8:11 pm 
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We would all love a link or two. :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:25 pm 
Dusty Bin wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I'm sure everyone interested in this debate knows that so far there have been no challenges on licence refusal based on European law, especially article 82.


I'm not really sure about the applicability of EU law John, maybe you have more information.

Dusty


Back in the early 90’s, the EU issued a statement saying that they had no plans at that time to interfere with the way local Authorities administered Taxi licensing. They have been true to their word so far. However, as we all know legislation is sometimes inter-linked and what may seem innocuous legislation to some, that same legislation is more conspicuous to others.

That’s why the Judge who presided over the now famous or infamous Irish case, which ever way you view it, brought to the attention of both parties that there are certain provisions in EU law which may have served the complainants equally as well. They are not his words they are my words.

What he actually said was this,
Quote:

HIGH COURT JUDGMENT IN APPEAL OF GOVERNMENT ISSUE OF TAXI LICENCES

THE HIGH COURT JUDICIAL REVIEW Record No. 38 JRI2000

BETWEEN

CHRISTOPHER HUMPHREY, TONY DOYLE, THOMAS O'CONNOR AND KEVIN BRADY
APPLICANTS

AND

THE MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT, THE MINISTER OF STATE AT THE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT, IRELAND, TILE ATTORNEY GENERAL, DUNDALK URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL, THE RIGHT HONOURABLE, LORD MAYOR ALDERMEN AND BURGESSES OF THE CITY OF DUBLIN THE NATIONAL TAXI DRIVERS UNION AND THOMAS GORMAN (IN HIS REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY AS GENERAL SECRETARY OF THE UNION) (JOINED BY ORDER)
RESPONDENTS

JUDGMENT of Mr. Justice Roderick Murphy
Delivered the 13th day of October 2000.


I was not addressed by Counsel in the course of these proceedings on the issue of the extent to which European Community law affects the scheme put in place by the Minister.

Nevertheless, I consider that European Community law is relevant to these proceedings and may also be fatal to the scheme whereby additional taxi licences will only issue to current holders of licences.

The argument is just this.

Non-discrimination is a general principle of Community law and, as such, it is a principle which is binding upon this State as a Member State of the European Union.

It is no less binding upon this Court than it is upon the Executive and the Legislature.

It need hardly be observed here that this principle has informed the development of Community Law as a whole and has found expression in fields of that law as diverse as nationality and sex equality.

Most recently, the Amsterdam Treaty has inserted a new Article 13 EC which provides a legislative basis for Community measures aimed at combating discrimination based on sex, racial or ethnic origin, religion or belief, disability, age or sexual orientation.

Discrimination on grounds of nationality is expressly proscribed by Article 12 of the EC Treaty (formerly, Article 6 EC).

It is trite law that this prohibition extends also to indirect discrimination on grounds of nationality.

Such a case of indirect discrimination would arise where, as in the case before me, a national rule which appears on its face not to discriminate on grounds of nationality in practice affects nationals of other European Union Member States to a greater degree than nationals of Ireland.

In this regard, it is not necessary for it to be established that the national measure in practice affects a higher proportion of foreigners, but merely that the measure is "intrinsically liable" to affect nationals of other Member States more than Irish nationals: see, in the context of Article 39 EC (formerly, Article 48 EC) Case C -237/94, O'Flynn v. Adjudication Officer [1996] ECR 1-26 17.

Article 12 EC is directly effective and can be relied upon before this Court without the necessity of relying on any other Treaty article: Case C-92192, Phil Collins v. Imtrat Handelsgesellschaft mbH [1993] ECR 1-5145, [1993] 3 CMLR 773.

I have come to the conclusion that the scheme purportedly put in place by SI 3/2000 may very well indirectly discriminate against Member States of the European Union other than Ireland in a manner which is prohibited by Article 12 of the EC Treaty.


I venture that all and, if not, the great majority of current taxi licence holders are Irish nationals.

By restricting the grant of new licences to this category of persons, the Minister is effectively precluding nationals of other EU Member States from becoming the owners of new taxi licences in Ireland.

That those nationals could purchase the licences at the market rate is no defence.

It is true that Irish persons who are not taxi licence holders are equally negatively affected, but the favouring of one group, all or most of the members of which are Irish nationals, remains.

I am guided, in reaching this conclusion, by such seminal European Court of Justice cases as Case C-279193, Finanzamt Koln-Altstadt v. Roland Schumacker [19951 ECR 1-225 and, in applying such principles in the Irish context, by such cases as Bloomer v. Law Society [1995] 3 JR 14. Even if my interpretation of Article 12 EC is misguided because of the equal exclusion of Irish nationals who are not taxi licence holders, Article 86 EC (formerly Article 90 EC) has to be considered, which provides, in relevant part that:

"1. In the case of... undertakings to which Member States grant special or exclusive rights, Member States shall neither enact nor maintain in force any measure contrary to the rules contained in this Treaty, in particular to those rules provided for in Article 12 and Articles 81 to 89." Wyatt and Dashwood, European Community Law (Sweet and Maxwell, 3rd edn., 1993), 551, explain that the rationale behind the portion of Article 86 EC quoted above is "the fact that the State has deliberately intervened to relieve the undertaking concerned wholly or partially from the discipline of competition, and must bear the responsibility for the consequences.

It is my view that the taxis must fall within the regulatory framework of Article 86 EC, as "undertakings to which [the State] grant[s] special or exclusive rights ".

The scheme might further be impugned under Article 86 on the ground that it might lead taxi drivers to abuse Article 82 EC, which is the Treaty provision dealing with abuses of dominant positions.

This might seem a little extreme, but the jurisprudence of the European Court of Justice has established that the grant of exclusivity, such as in the present case, may infringe Articles 86 and 82 either when the exercise of the exclusive rights cannot avoid being abusive (Case C-41/90, Hofner and Elser v. Macrotron GmbH [1991] ECR 1-1979, [1993] 4 CMLR 306), or where such rights are liable to create a situation in which the undertaking is induced to commit an abuse (Case C -260/89, Elliniki Radiophonia Tileorassi AE (ERT) v. Dimotiki Etairia Pliroforissis (DEP) and Sotirios Kouvelas [1991] ECR 1-2925, [19941 4 CMLR 540).

Also instructive in this regard is Case C-179/90, Merci Convenzionali Porto di Genova SpA v. Siderurgica Gabrielli SpA [19911 ECR 1-5889, [1994] 4 CMLR 422, as to which, see Craig and de de Búrca, EU Law, 2nd ed., Oxford, 1998.

Taxis may very well be induced to commit abuses of their dominant position in Ireland by the scheme purportedly put in place by SI 3/2000.

Now what all this means is this. Article 82 refers to qualified citizens of other EU countries being denied employment in other EU countries. What the judge was saying is that if you restrict your own citizens, then you also restrict citizens from other EU counties. He is implying by way of restricting Taxi Licences, the Government is breaching article 82 and to some extent article 86 by denying EU citizens the right to have a Taxi licence. Very clever indeed.

Now then, you will notice that the Judge had to bring it to the attention of both parties in this case, so that tells you how much homework the plaintiff’s solicitor and Barrister had done. However, it is understandable that they were unaware of the implications of article 82 because I've not come across anyone else who is aware.

That above statement is certainly true of the Taxi industry.

Have a guess at how many MP's understand the implications laid out above? I bet not many, how many Cab drivers do you think understand the implications of the above? How many trade bodies do you think understand the implications of the above? From my own position, here in Manchester I can tell you not very many.

That’s why I stated previously that if there are to be any new challenges on taxi licence refusal it will be done by way of article 82 not by way of section 16.

Section 16 has run its legal course, most avenues of case law have been explored and there is very little room for manoeuvre. On the other hand, the floodgates have been opened by virtue of article 82. Another thing you have to realise is that if a case is brought and won, there will be no period of respite for the Taxi trade deregulation will happen instantly. Contemplate that one lol

Best wishes.

John Davies.
Manchester


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:30 pm 
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When I first read that judgment, it was the one big thing that popped out at me. :shock:

If for no other reason, that neither side of the court case even mentioned it.

I have always had the opinion that the freedom of movement could be an end to the number restrictions.

As the judge implied, a taxi driver could not come from Madrid and get a HC vehicle license in Manchester, even if he/she passes the knowledge, CRB, medical etc. :shock:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:34 am 
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Anonymous wrote:
Now what all this means is this. Article 82 refers to qualified citizens of other EU countries being denied employment in other EU countries. What the judge was saying is that if you restrict your own citizens, then you also restrict citizens from other EU counties. He is implying by way of restricting Taxi Licences, the Government is breaching article 82 and to some extent article 86 by denying EU citizens the right to have a Taxi licence. Very clever indeed.



I don't have Art 82 to hand John, but that's the 'abuse of a dominant position' article, which usually applies to the actions of companies - for example, if they abuse their market power to keep out new competitors by selling very cheaply - predatory pricing.

I'm not sure if it mentions anything about citizens being denied employment in other countries.

My interpretation of what he's saying is that the scheme in question might be discriminatory, and that would directly breach Art 12.

Art 86 is an alternative avenue - what it basically says is that if the state provides a monopoly, then it must comply with the other provisions of the treaty. So he's saying that it might breach Art 86, but he doesn't actually say how it might breach that - that's what I was getting at in my earlier post- how would the scheme actually breach Art 82?

It can't be because it breaches the non-discrimination rule in Art 12 (ie the one he is referring to earlier) because that could be relied on directy - you don't have to go via Art 82.

The thing with Art 82 is that it is not directly relevant, because normally it only applies to firms conducting business in the market , ie it doesn't apply to regulatory decisions of governments. But Art 86 gives an alternative way in to Art 82 - 86 says that if states provide a monopoly, then it must not be abused contrary to Art 82.

There are another couple of articles that I've always had a feeling about - these are the ones on the free movement of workers and capital, which the judge doesn't actually mention - I think that's maybe what Andy is getting at in his post, but the judge seems to be on about discrimination, not free movement of workers and capital, which is a different issue, although of course the two can be related.

Dusty


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:16 pm 
Dusty Bin wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Now what all this means is this. Article 82 refers to qualified citizens of other EU countries being denied employment in other EU countries. What the judge was saying is that if you restrict your own citizens, then you also restrict citizens from other EU counties. He is implying by way of restricting Taxi Licences, the Government is breaching article 82 and to some extent article 86 by denying EU citizens the right to have a Taxi licence. Very clever indeed.



I don't have Art 82 to hand John, but that's the 'abuse of a dominant position' article, which usually applies to the actions of companies - for example, if they abuse their market power to keep out new competitors by selling very cheaply - predatory pricing.
Dusty

I was confusing 82 with 86 I realised the mistake after I had posted it. I was wondering who would pick up on it? lol but I thought if anyone would it would be you. Ten out of ten for observation.

Best wishes

John Davies.
Manchester.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:53 pm 
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K'in 'ell !!

Would one of you guys be available to defend me if I ever get nicked for anything?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:03 pm 
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got to agree there andy7

these people constantly amaze me, enrage me and make me laugh.

some people in the trade are worth the effort

regards

Captain cab


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 Post subject: Andy
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:09 pm 
Christ Andy,hope my wife does not see this forum,these people on about the dominant position,she will think this is a sex forum.
Be lucky


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:37 pm 
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A reply to JB from Wirral, Firstly around 60 drivers fought the Wirral case Mark Royden put his name as the applicant because he is the branch sec of the local T&G branch. This in effect meant that he was liable for court costs if we lost(which we did) when this was pointed out by the solicitors just about everyone took one step back, and Mark was the only one to put his head onto the block, so give him some credit.

Secondly Crawley was under starters orders to delimit.when we were in London for the leave appeal we met some Crawley boys and they showed us their officers report, as soon as we read it we told them that they would remove the numerical limit, but only license purpose-built vehicles not older than 3 years old. Apart from it being 4 not 3 years old we were bang on.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:47 pm 
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deecee wrote:
A reply to JB from Wirral, Firstly around 60 drivers fought the Wirral case Mark Royden put his name as the applicant because he is the branch sec of the local T&G branch. This in effect meant that he was liable for court costs if we lost(which we did) when this was pointed out by the solicitors just about everyone took one step back, and Mark was the only one to put his head onto the block, so give him some credit.

Welcome to the forum Deecee. :wink:

I have a lot of sympathy with drivers that are prepared to front up to those in power; alas I have no sympathy for the likes of Mr Royden.

He may be a decent bloke, but at the end of the day he wanted to stop other suitably qualified drivers becoming HC plate-holders, when only a few years before he benefited himself from gaining a free plate. [-X

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:35 pm 
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deecee wrote:
A reply to JB from Wirral, Firstly around 60 drivers fought the Wirral case Mark Royden put his name as the applicant because he is the branch sec of the local T&G branch. This in effect meant that he was liable for court costs if we lost (which we did) when this was pointed out by the solicitors just about everyone took one step back, and Mark was the only one to put his head onto the block, so give him some credit.

You state "if we lost the case". I assume by that you were one of the Wirral owners involved?

Best wishes

JD


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