Taxi Driver Online :: View topic - Halton, the thickest licensing department in the country.

[So what do the good folk in the licensing department of Halton do? Why they come up with the novel idea that because plate premiums are less in their manor than others, then there is no un-met demand. ](*,)

You just couldn't make it up. :sad:

The government have asked councils to review quotas http://www.taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=747 . They say that customers must be central to that review, and any reasons to keep quotas must be justified.

So what do the good folk in the licensing department of Halton do? Why they come up with the novel idea that because plate premiums are less in their manor than others, then there is no un-met demand. ](*,)

http://www.halton.gov.uk/committeeminut ... No%203.doc

This report was written by the licensing solicitor. It just goes to show how thick some of these people really are.

This report was written by the licensing solicitor. It just goes to show how thick some of these people really are. I wonder who gave him the going rate for a plate lol he probably asked the local TOA. Maybe I should publish a comprehensive list of plate values to go with the comprehensive list of restricted councils, then there won't be any confusion.

We will just have to wait and see how the DfT reacts to the likes of Walton

well if this report was written by a solicitor he should know the law.
premiums demonstrate unmet demand and nothing else.

halcrow fox reckon 12,000 demonstrates significant unmet demand.

they told our council so.

The report relies on guess work, there is no proof, by way of a survey or by way of asking the general public about taxi services, if there are enough taxis. How can the report justify no unmet demand without the proof of a survey? It will be interesting to find out if anyone will ask the council for a hackney license and then see what the council say.

Yorkie wrote:

Well as the law stands I don't think there's any relationship between the presence of unmet demand and plate premiums, so I reckon Halcrow is talking nonsense.

They surveyed Brighton, for example, where premiums were £30k, and only a dozen and a half plates were issued, and if Halcrow knew anything then they would have known that this would barely touch plate values, and indeed it seems that they have since risen, despite the new plates.

And what about Woking, who surveyed that? Plate values of £50k, yet no unmet demand present.

And who surveys places like Manchester?

Unmet demand can easily be lessened by increasing fares, but this doesn't mean lower premiums, indeed it could well increase them.

Author:	Sussex [ Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Halton, the thickest licensing department in the country.
You just couldn't make it up. The government have asked councils to review quotas http://www.taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=747 . They say that customers must be central to that review, and any reasons to keep quotas must be justified. So what do the good folk in the licensing department of Halton do? Why they come up with the novel idea that because plate premiums are less in their manor than others, then there is no un-met demand. http://www.halton.gov.uk/committeeminut ... No%203.doc

Author:	steveo [ Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:38 pm ]
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does seem to be a daft reason, but i bet the local HC lads are over the moon about it. Personally i would favour a limited increase in numbers over a period of time, rather than a total delimit like many areas seem to be doing.

Author:	Alex [ Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Halton, the thickest licensing department in the country
Sussex wrote: [So what do the good folk in the licensing department of Halton do? Why they come up with the novel idea that because plate premiums are less in their manor than others, then there is no un-met demand. You have to wonder what they would have said if all the surrounding councils were quota free? Alex

Author:	JD [ Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Halton, the thickest licensing department in the country
Sussex wrote: You just couldn't make it up. The government have asked councils to review quotas http://www.taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=747 . They say that customers must be central to that review, and any reasons to keep quotas must be justified. So what do the good folk in the licensing department of Halton do? Why they come up with the novel idea that because plate premiums are less in their manor than others, then there is no un-met demand. http://www.halton.gov.uk/committeeminut ... No%203.doc This report was written by the licensing solicitor. It just goes to show how thick some of these people really are. I wonder who gave him the going rate for a plate lol he probably asked the local TOA. Maybe I should publish a comprehensive list of plate values to go with the comprehensive list of restricted councils, then there won't be any confusion. Best wishes

Author:	TDO [ Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:14 pm ]
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Clearly Halton doesn't want to survey, and has instead latched on to the DfT's statement about high plate values, which was never intended as a method by which an LA could discharge its legal responsiblities. But this is just indicative of what we envisaged might happen - if an LA ignores its legal responsibilities (primarily to undertake a survey if it restricts), either deliberately or through ignorance, then what is to stop it doing so? The scenario then reverts to the one that existed pre-OFT - ie it needs a legal challenge against the LA to make them budge, and it seems unlikely that this will happen in Halton, given what (presumably) has (or hasn't!) happened in the past. We will just have to wait and see how the DfT reacts to the likes of Walton, but presumably if they won't budge then the DfT can't do anything.

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Author:	TDO [ Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Halton, the thickest licensing department in the country
JD wrote: This report was written by the licensing solicitor. It just goes to show how thick some of these people really are. Or devious?

Author:	TDO [ Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Halton, the thickest licensing department in the country
JD wrote: This report was written by the licensing solicitor. It just goes to show how thick some of these people really are. I wonder who gave him the going rate for a plate lol he probably asked the local TOA. Maybe I should publish a comprehensive list of plate values to go with the comprehensive list of restricted councils, then there won't be any confusion. I don't really know any of these LAs, but the price for Liverpool certainly seems high - £50-55k - for Myth and Reality I think we used about £30k. It certainly seems unlikely that premiums have risen this much, so this could presumably explained by: - we were wrong with our value - the figures quoted are on the high side to make Halton look more like a low value area - the figures include the vehicle, which would of course make the figures totally misleading, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me!

Author:	Yorkie [ Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:42 am ]
Post subject:
well if this report was written by a solicitor he should know the law. premiums demonstrate unmet demand and nothing else. halcrow fox reckon 12,000 demonstrates significant unmet demand. they told our council so.

Author:	Sussex [ Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:09 am ]
Post subject:
TDO wrote: We will just have to wait and see how the DfT reacts to the likes of Walton What's that Jim Bob or John Boy?

Author:	Sussex [ Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:15 am ]
Post subject:
There is one saving grace coming out of buffoon councils like this, and that's when OFT review in a few years time, the likes of Halton will be music to their ears. I see that they also fall for the T&G scare-momgering. Instead of repeating what the T&G say about Birmingham and Liverpool, why don't they just ring them up. Birmingham only license brand new vehicles, do Halton do that? Liverpool is den of iniquity, drivers being screwed in terms of rental rates, and less money being spent on the up keep of vehicles because something has to go when you are paying £30/40/50,000 for a piece of plastic. Still I expect the author of the report would have checked that out.

Author:	Alex [ Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:51 am ]
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I have e-mailed the licensing committe, and LO team with the link to this thread. It will be very interesting if a member of the LO team could come on TDO and try to make some sense out of their report. Alex

Author:	TDO [ Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:
Yorkie wrote: well if this report was written by a solicitor he should know the law. premiums demonstrate unmet demand and nothing else. halcrow fox reckon 12,000 demonstrates significant unmet demand. they told our council so. Well as the law stands I don't think there's any relationship between the presence of unmet demand and plate premiums, so I reckon Halcrow is talking nonsense. They surveyed Brighton, for example, where premiums were £30k, and only a dozen and a half plates were issued, and if Halcrow knew anything then they would have known that this would barely touch plate values, and indeed it seems that they have since risen, despite the new plates. And what about Woking, who surveyed that? Plate values of £50k, yet no unmet demand present. And who surveys places like Manchester? Unmet demand can easily be lessened by increasing fares, but this doesn't mean lower premiums, indeed it could well increase them.

Author:	captain cab [ Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:
We seem to be drifting towards the words typical councils and councillors. The DFT, in my interpretation, is not telling local authorities to delimit numbers or to put them on hold, they are merely asking local authorities to justify numbers control. I personally believe this should be extended to all local authorities, including those that do not limit numbers. The taxi profession need to know, as part of any decent local transport plan, surveys should and would be paid for out of another budget, one for transport planning and infastructure. This way limits can be put back on taxi numbers when required, and lifted when required, part of a continual review policy, in line with LTPs. I have given my view, at length, about my fear that local authorities are delimiting because its easier than justification, this authority seems to be doing the same by limiting, only in an opposite manner. For what its worth both types of local authority seem as bad as each other, neither are taking the trade seriously and justifying their decisions in the way it needs justified. The report fails to say that the T&G came out of the OFT with no valid policy and have been castigated because of it.. It additionally fails to say that Liverpool and Birmingham are completely different places, with obviously different public transport requirements than Halton. The report relies on guess work, there is no proof, by way of a survey or by way of asking the general public about taxi services, if there are enough taxis. How can the report justify no unmet demand without the proof of a survey? It will be interesting to find out if anyone will ask the council for a hackney license and then see what the council say. I am surprised that the local authority so readily admits that there is a value attached to their permits, Perhaps they should start issuing them at the market value, now that would be a sensible move! And give the council some decent additional income to pass onto the rest of public transport.

Author:	TDO [ Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:
captain cab wrote: The report relies on guess work, there is no proof, by way of a survey or by way of asking the general public about taxi services, if there are enough taxis. How can the report justify no unmet demand without the proof of a survey? It will be interesting to find out if anyone will ask the council for a hackney license and then see what the council say. That's the crux of the point we made when the Govt published it's Action Plan. Any driver asking for a plate in Halton will just be told what the council has presumably been telling them for years - there's a quota, so sorry, no can do. Of course in some areas people have the nous to challenge the LA, thus they will either get a plate or the LA has to survey. But in many LAs there have clearly never been surveys, or if they have surveyed then it is well out of date, and wouldn't survive a legal challenge. The Govt recommened that LAs delimit, but if not then they were asked to survey so that any legal challenge would not succeed. But if the LA ignores the Govt, as Halton is prima facie doing, then we're effectively back to square one, and it's up to individuals, but frankly many drivers know as much about the law in this regard as I know about the theory of relativity. The Govt's intention was clearly to add a bit of pressure effectively on the behalf of those in the trade and living in blissful ignorance, but the big unknown is what will happen if LAs like Halton effectively just carry on as before. Let's face it, NO LA has yet decided to maintain restrictions AND properly address the Govt's non-binding requirements, so it'll be interesting to see how the Govt reacts to this. There should start to be a rash of such cases.

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Author:	Yorkie [ Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:16 am ]
Post subject:
TDO wrote: Yorkie wrote: well if this report was written by a solicitor he should know the law. premiums demonstrate unmet demand and nothing else. halcrow fox reckon 12,000 demonstrates significant unmet demand. they told our council so. Well as the law stands I don't think there's any relationship between the presence of unmet demand and plate premiums, so I reckon Halcrow is talking nonsense. They surveyed Brighton, for example, where premiums were £30k, and only a dozen and a half plates were issued, and if Halcrow knew anything then they would have known that this would barely touch plate values, and indeed it seems that they have since risen, despite the new plates. And what about Woking, who surveyed that? Plate values of £50k, yet no unmet demand present. And who surveys places like Manchester? Unmet demand can easily be lessened by increasing fares, but this doesn't mean lower premiums, indeed it could well increase them. your innocent ignorance is touching see section 27 of circular 3/85 and"PRICES FOR THE TRANSFER OF taxi licenses from one person to another which imply an artificial restriction in supply" look at it and stop setting yourself up as an expert as it would appear you know [edited by admin] all.