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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:14 pm 
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A bit of history for you.

Cromwell introduced regulation and licencing of hackney coaches to prevent any tom dick or harry accosting and pestering the public. (After the Civil War, there were presumably a lot of unemployed ex soldiers)

Further Cromwell required Hackney Carriage Drivers to buy their licence, in my view the plate premiums perform the same function and act as a disincentive for drivers to misbehave and risk losing their licence premium investment.

Essentially the laws today still mean to do the same thing. No one is allowed to accost a member of the public, or solicit hire work. It is always for the public to initiate the hire process either by:
Going to an authorised taxi rank.
Flagging down or hailing a licenced hackney carriage
By booking through the licenced proprietor of a private hire car company
Private hire cars should not be on public display unless they are going to, on, or from their prebooked hire. Even hackney carriages have to go directly to their nearest taxi rank.

So you see the laws are there to prevent cars cruising round and accosting people, derestriction leads directly to these unwanted consequences. See below for the Act.


Quote:
June, 1654

[23 June, 1654.]

Number of hackney-coachmen in London, etc., from June 24, 1654, limited to 200.; Hackney-coaches to 300.; Hockney-horses to 600.; To be under control of Court of Aldermen.; Names of 13 of the first 200 hackney-coachmen.; Directions for making up number to 200.

Forasmuch as many Inconveniences do daily arise by reason of the late increase and great irregularity of Hackney Coaches and Hackney Coachmen in London, Westminster and the places thereabouts: For remedy thereof, Be it Ordained by his Highness the Lord Protector, with the consent of His Council, that from the four and twentieth day of June, One thousand six hundred fifty and four ensuing, the number of persons keeping Hackney-coaches and Hackney horses for Coaches, within the City of London, Westminster and six miles about the late lines of communication, do not exceed at one time two hundred; nor the Hackney-coaches to be used by them, three hundred; nor their Hackney Horses for Coaches do not exceed the number of six hundred. And for the better Ordering and Governing the said Hackney-coach-men, Be it Ordained that the Government and Ordering of them shall from time to time be in the Court of Aldermen, of the City of London, in such manner as is hereby Ordained. And that Benjamin Francis, Andrew Clark, John Saltmarsh, Arthur Willis, Thomas Stephens, Anthony Hart, William Hockley, Thomas Graham, William Deacon, William Norwell, John Bray, Richard Heyborn, and William Clark, be thirteen of the first two hundred persons who shall keep Hackney-coaches, and Hackney-Coach-horses as aforesaid; which said thirteen persons, or the greater number of them, meeting in some convenient place for that purpose, shall nominate and present to the said Court of Aldermen two hundred persons, out of which two hundred persons, nominated and presented as aforesaid, or such other persons as the said Court of Aldermen shall think fit, the said Court shall elect and chuse one hundred eighty and seven persons, to make up the Thirteen Master Hackney-Coachmen aforesaid, to the number of two hundred, who shall thereupon be admitted and entred to be Master Hackney-Coachmen within the Limits aforesaid; And that no other persons dwelling within the Limits aforesaid, not of the number, nor entred and admitted as aforesaid, shall keep to hire out any Coaches.

Directions for appointing new hackney-coachmen in case of death or other vacancy.

And it is further Ordained, That if any of the said two hundred Master Hackney-Coach-men shall dy, depart from the limits aforesaid, or be removed, that then the said Remaining MasterCoachmen shall nominate and present to the said Court of Aldermen, double the number of such persons as shall dy, depart the Limits, or be removed as aforesaid, out of whom, or such others as the said Court of Aldermen shall think fit, the same Court shall from time to time elect and choose so many as shall make up the number of two hundred persons as aforesaid.

Stage-coaches not affected.

Provided, That nothing herein contained, do extend to the prejudice or restraint of the Coaches commonly called Stage Coaches, coming to, or going from London into remote places.

Hackney-coachmen to pay admission fee of 40s.

And be it further Ordained, That all and every of the said two hundred persons to be first admitted, and all that shall hereafter be admitted to keep Hackney-Coaches, as aforesaid, shall at their first admittance pay for his and their admission the sum of fourty shillings a-piece, towards raising a Stock, and for defraying the common Charges of the said Company.

Court of Aldermen may make rules and bye-laws for hackney-coachmen, subject to approval of Lord Protector.

And lastly, For the better Ordering and Governing of the said Hackney-Coachmen, and those imployed under them, It is Ordained, That the said Court of Aldermen shall from time to time have power to make and ordain Rules, Directions, and Bye-laws, for and concerning the distribution of Coaches amongst the said Coach-men, their places of Standing, their Rates for Carriages, Penalties for disobedience by them, or others, to the provisions of this Ordinance, or to the said By-laws; Also for due Recovering of the same Penalties, and for removing of such as shall be offenders, and for any other thing tending to the well-ordering of the said Coachmen, and to the due execution of this Ordinance; Which Rules, Directions, and by-Lawes, being from time to time presented to and Allowed by His Highness the Lord Protector and his Council for the time being with such Alterations and Additions as shall by the said Lord Protector and his Council, be made thereunto, shall be binding to all parties, and accordingly be duly executed.


http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56562

Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:03 am 
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MarkRGuildford wrote:
Hackney-coachmen to pay admission fee of 40s

So how much would 40 shillings in 1654 be worth now?

It seems an awful lot of money!!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:48 am 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
So how much would 40 shillings in 1654 be worth now?


£3,170.00 using average earnings according to this website http://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/ppoweruk/result.php?use%5B%5D=CPI&use%5B%5D=NOMINALEARN&year_early=1654&pound71=2&shilling71=&pence71=&amount=2&year_source=1654&year_result=2011

A plate/license premium does act as an incentive to good behaviour by taxi drivers. The higher the premium the more likely the owner is not to risk losing his license. I have never seen that point made in the debate over derestriction.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:28 pm 
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MarkRGuildford wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
So how much would 40 shillings in 1654 be worth now?

£3,170.00 using average earnings according to this website http://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/ppoweruk/result.php?use%5B%5D=CPI&use%5B%5D=NOMINALEARN&year_early=1654&pound71=2&shilling71=&pence71=&amount=2&year_source=1654&year_result=2011

A plate/license premium does act as an incentive to good behaviour by taxi drivers. The higher the premium the more likely the owner is not to risk losing his license. I have never seen that point made in the debate over derestriction.

And that's why there is so much flotsam and jetsam in the trade now!!

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:49 pm 
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This just might be a red herring... for why doesn't somebody making a comparison between the fisheries.... and the compensation that was paid out to the licence holders of fishing vessels.... that have to be scrapped... because there were too many....

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:40 pm 
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MR T wrote:
This just might be a red herring... for why doesn't somebody making a comparison between the fisheries.... and the compensation that was paid out to the licence holders of fishing vessels.... that have to be scrapped... because there were too many....


You sound a bit fishy Cap'n Birdseye. I reckon you're from Sussex. Perhaps they didn't get compensated cos they weren't eligible under the Human Rights Act?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:45 am 
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MarkRGuildford wrote:
A plate/license premium does act as an incentive to good behaviour by taxi drivers. The higher the premium the more likely the owner is not to risk losing his license. I have never seen that point made in the debate over derestriction.


Probably because it's superficial nonsense.

I can't really see a council revoke a valuable licence because of a driving matter, although the driver's badge might be a different story.

In any case, where most drivers don't have a plate - Liverpool, for example - your proposition doesn't even reach the status of half-baked theory.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:59 am 
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MarkRGuildford wrote:
MR T wrote:
This just might be a red herring... for why doesn't somebody making a comparison between the fisheries.... and the compensation that was paid out to the licence holders of fishing vessels.... that have to be scrapped... because there were too many....


You sound a bit fishy Cap'n Birdseye. I reckon you're from Sussex. Perhaps they didn't get compensated cos they weren't eligible under the Human Rights Act?

But they did!.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:42 am 
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MR T wrote:
This just might be a red herring... for why doesn't somebody making a comparison between the fisheries.... and the compensation that was paid out to the licence holders of fishing vessels.... that have to be scrapped... because there were too many....


Presumably the difference is that no one is forcing or requesting the scrapping of taxi licences.

By the way: red herring, fisheries - like it :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:41 am 
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TDO wrote:
MR T wrote:
This just might be a red herring... for why doesn't somebody making a comparison between the fisheries.... and the compensation that was paid out to the licence holders of fishing vessels.... that have to be scrapped... because there were too many....

Presumably the difference is that no one is forcing or requesting the scrapping of taxi licences.

By the way: red herring, fisheries - like it :lol:

Never seen one; don't exist!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:39 am 
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TDO wrote:
MarkRGuildford wrote:
A plate/license premium does act as an incentive to good behaviour by taxi drivers. The higher the premium the more likely the owner is not to risk losing his license. I have never seen that point made in the debate over derestriction.


Probably because it's superficial nonsense.

I can't really see a council revoke a valuable licence because of a driving matter, although the driver's badge might be a different story.

In any case, where most drivers don't have a plate - Liverpool, for example - your proposition doesn't even reach the status of half-baked theory.


Fair enough. Why not stick with the Cromwell idea and have restricted numbers of driver licences with premiums to ensure good behaviour?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:18 pm 
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we still use the the cromwell regs here

have at ye knave, where eth be ye fare?

doth thou know what the cost of hay is for yon nag since the whigs won power in parliament?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:40 pm 
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In 1623 there were Hackney-coach vehicles operating in London.
I'll take your "Cromwell" and raise you a "Charles I" for the earliest Mr MarkRGuildford. Thirty-one years earlier in fact.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:06 pm 
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Chris the Fish wrote:
In 1623 there were Hackney-coach vehicles operating in London.
I'll take your "Cromwell" and raise you a "Charles I" for the earliest Mr MarkRGuildford. Thirty-one years earlier in fact.


They may well have been operating, but, were they licensed?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:30 am 
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MarkRGuildford wrote:
Fair enough. Why not stick with the Cromwell idea and have restricted numbers of driver licences with premiums to ensure good behaviour?


Personally I'd prefer proper quality control and enforcement. And that way it would be a proper job and to that extent would encourage good behaviour because the drivers wouldn't want to lose it.

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