Taxi Driver Online

TAXI operators in Leeds are threatening legal action to prevent the deregulation of their industry, which they claim will put the public at risk.

Leeds Council is considering dropping its restrictions on the number of Hackney Carriages in its area following a request earlier this year from the Department of Transport.

There are 1,022 taxis in the city and a further 3,429 private hire vehicles but there have been complaints that there are too few taxis to meet demand. The Government wants to increase competition after deregulation plans were developed by the Office of Fair Trading.

The OFT said local authority restrictions on taxi numbers should be lifted because it would lead to lower waiting times, increased availability and reduce the dangers of illegal cabs.

Consultation with drivers has revealed widespread opposition to deregulation in Leeds. Taxi operators recently organised a protest in the city and have told Leeds Council that regulation would be "drastic and damaging" to their trade. They said the income of existing licence holders would be destroyed, vehicle maintenance would suffer and "rogue elements" could emerge, causing increased risk to the public. Tomorrow members of the council's scrutiny board will meet in Leeds to discuss a report into the deregulation plans.

Councillors on the board are expected to order a full consultation, involving the public and taxi operators, before any decision is made. When drivers were asked their views last year they were vehemently opposed. Brian Heptinstall, of the Taxi Owners Association and proprietor of Telecabs in Leeds, told the council that deregulation would damage the trade. Both the TOA and Leeds Amalgamated Public Taxi Proprietors Association were "emphatically opposed" to the plans.

They said there would be health and safety implications because existing licence holders would have to work longer hours to maintain their income.
They said that trade associations would dissolve and there would be no internal disciplinary process, leading to "rogue elements" moving into the trade. More taxis would also lead to increased inner-city congestion.

The Government has asked Leeds Council to make a decision on deregulation by March.

A letter from the Department of Transport to the council, sent in June, states: "The Government believes restrictions should only be retained where there is shown to be a clear benefit for the consumer, and that councils should publicly justify their reasons for the retention of restrictions and how decisions on numbers have been reached. "Thus, the Government considers that, unless a specific case can be made, it is not in the interests of consumers for market entry to be refused to those who meet the application criteria."

I'm surprised no one has commented on this report. To me it bears out the realism that licensing Authorities are now faced with.

All those Cab drivers who think de restriction won't happen in there life time better wake up and take a deep breath of reality.

Councils have been placed in a very awkward situation when it comes to explaining how the public will be better served by restricting numbers.

Any council who can say the public are better served by restricting numbers better be prepaired to produce the evidence in a court of law. Because logic states otherwise.

Best wishes

JD

So allowing the public to get an unsafe taxi, with a knackered driver sooner are better served than those areas where consumer demand is properly assessed and adequate provision is provided.

Your logic may state otherwise, but what we have here is a equally valid opposing argument, something which you cannot accept nor properly recognise.

I wonder what percentage of the consumer complaints relating to HC when the nightclubs kicked out and what percentage relates to not being able to get a PH car during the whole weekend, remember consumers believe that both are taxis.

This why unmet denamd surveys must be undertaken, after all we don't want the 3000+ PH to go HC and reduce provision of PH if the majority of complaints are about PH provision.

What would you do if Manchester ever deregulated? It will come soon, what will we see then mass hysteria by the Manc cabbies?

If the Plymouth court case goes ahead and Mr Preece introduces the European equation and the Judge finds in his favour then the excercise of justifying numbers will be purely academic. Councils will have the numbers poilicy taken out of their hands by the Courts.

If Mr Preece doesn't introduce the European factor into his case and he wins on the grounds of the latest Governement guidlines then it may be the case that councils will see this as being the straw that breaks the Camels back.

Councils are placed with a heavy burden of justifying their restrictive policy and Manchester is no exception.

Just because I'm realistic about what effects the cab trade it doesn't mean that I'm not aware as to what might happen in Manchester. At the moment the council are happy to go along with the current policy of increasing numbers year on year but that policy could be taken out of their hands if Mr Preece wins his case.

Manchester will have to justify their policy along with every other restricive council if at the end of the day they find they can't justify that policy then I'm sure a date will be set for complete delimitaion.

There is not a lot that can be done about that.

You must admit that so far my warnings of what might happen regarding the governments advice has been totally accurate. This latest anouncement by Leeds shows that even the largest Councils are having difficulty in getting around the Governments reccomendations.

Mr Kavanagh must be having nightmares at the Leeds announcement.

Best wishes

JD

John I never doubted your comments, as you rightly say we can all get ready for it sooner or later, whether it be a rush or a trickle no one is safe.

How many unsafe Taxis operate in your area? If it ever happens, there will be just as many unsafe Taxis in your area under de restriction as there are under the present policy of restriction. The reason being is because Councils set the policy for safe or unsafe vehicles. If your council has a current policy of licensing unsafe vehicles, then that policy may not change in the future.

Personally I don't know of any council that knowingly license unsafe vehicles. Perhaps you can tell us which Councils you have in mind when you talk about unsafe vehicles.

I havent a clue was to why you mentioned knackered drivers, does the law not state that any fit and proper person can hold a Taxi licence, providing they meet the required standards as laid down by the council. Perhaps you can furnish us with a wider definition of a knackered driver?



Like many others I can see only too cleary the arguments for and against, it is not my logic that defies reality. The problem is not me or you knowing the arguments for and against, it's down to every restricted council throughout the country knowing these arguments. What some cant grasp is the fact that Councils are having great difficulty in circumventing the Goverments advice about a better public service.

As one Judge commented back in the eighties "It matters not what Cab drivers think about deregulation". He was referring to their protected position which was being maintained by the Council. I think it was the Yarmouth case.

The hole point of the Governement advice is that the public should have an unfettered service. Thats not me saying that its the Government. If you have difficulty coming to terms with the Goverments preffered option then its hardly anybodies fault but your own

The remainder of your comments have been bypassed because they have been well documented in the past. Its up to individual councils whether they retain a policy of restricted numbers. It's my belief that surveys won't do them a lot of good in a court of law but I suppose that theory will soon be tested in the plymouth case.

Best wishes

JD

Maybe you fail to answer the question of PH provision as it conflicts with your own idealistic viewpoint.

The OFT didn't investigate a persons right to hold a licence, nor did it make its recomendations to assist people to get a plate.

When the public say "I waited an hour for a taxi" they are equally likely to be refering to PH, failure on your part to recognise this fact is matched by the OFT and was only briefly mentioned by the DfT.

I don't think that ignoring this problem and dismissing an answer by stating that the question has been asked and answered many times before doesn't really bring a solution to the problem any closer.

PH provision suffers following deregulation, people cannot therefore book a taxi from the office they know and trust with any confidence, my money is on more complaints for more taxis.

If you are suggesting that current PH drivers will continue to work in the same way they have always done but with a different plate on the back I couldn't understand their reasoning for wanting the plate in the first place, unless it is then to fight to get the plates closed in order to create a premium.

But didn't the T&G KO OFT?

_________________
IDFIMH

For the seventh million time, unsafe taxis are evidence of [edited by admin] poor council enforcement, and nothing to do with the ending of quotas.

Did you never read M&R?
http://www.taxi-driver.co.uk/reality.doc

_________________
IDFIMH

You miss the point that restricting councils have a legal duty to ensure that taxis meet any demand for taxis.

No such provision exists for PH.

_________________
IDFIMH

You aksed me to respond to these two points so I will try and accomodate you in that respect.

I am a little puzzled at the point are you trying to make? Why don’t you address the issue which I put forward in respect of councils having great difficulty in finding a solution to the Governments request that they should de limit numbers if they can't provide a good and sensible reason for restricting those numbers?

It doesn't matter one iota what private hire companies may or may not do, the Government advice is about one thing only and that’s the ability of a council to restrict numbers. The arguments about the way private hire works has got nothing whatsoever to do with a councils ability to show that the public are better served in the area of "public hire".

The assumption by those that wish to defend their current restricted status that the private hire industry will become extinct over night is utter nonsense.

The inference that Private hire will no longer function might make for good scare tactics to those who are not familiar with workings of the Taxi trade but those comments won't make a ripple in this forum.

Try telling a Judge that he can't allow a council to delimit numbers because it will leave the door open for all private hire drivers in your area to become taxi drivers. What reaction do you think you will get?

I suspect there will be those who will be telling their local council to include the spurious notion that the private hire industry will collapse if they de restricted numbers. I will be surprised if any council is stupid enough to go down that road. I thought spurious unsubstantiated comments were the sole domain of Mr. Kavanagh and his ilk.

I'm afraid the bogus arguments about private hire, in relation to what is taking place, is nothing short of desperation on the part of those who are still clinging on to the last vestiges of an unequal system. Even here in Manchester we know what may or may not happen but the realists amongst us don't put forward the total bogus argument that you have put forward about the private hire system. Perhaps you have been taking too much notice of what Mr. Kavanagh has been saying when you should have been taking notice of what is actually happening throughout the country.




I said I would comment fully on these two points you raised but I think I answered them both adequately in the above paragraphs. I would just like to say that I have no idea which district you work in but if you have a large private hire industry you may work in one of the major cities. The point you continually fail to address is the dilemma which councils now find themselves. If a council comes out with a reason for not de limiting numbers they are instantly open to challenge.

Future Court cases will not be about local seven day surveys, surveys can be easily discredited especially if you have a half decent Barrister. Future cases will be based on the new Governments guidelines and the reasonableness of a councils decision to restrict numbers on evidence that cannot be sustained by logic. The European element will also be a factor.

Perhaps you may wish to reconsider your arguments and approach the situation with a little more pragmatism. It may be the case that a little reality will appear on the horizon.

Best wishes to you and I hope you didn't find my comments too unreasonable.

JD

I wish my local bank would take heed too, because every dinner time when they send their staff for lunch, there is an unmet demand of bank tellers.

Every morning and every evening there is an unmet demand for road space too, but as soon as people get where their going the demand disappears.

The queues to get into our nightclubs show an unmet demand, otherwise why would we queue?.

Every morning and eveing there are commuters standing on buses, there is an unmet demand for seats.

Think about it, why pick on taxis?

There is no way, absolutely no way, we are ever going to have enough taxis or PH or both to satisfy the unmet demand at certain periods, everybody knows this.

I dont know what the solution is, I know from delimitation in my area that the answer isnt delimitation, if anything it makes the situation worse, the end result does not effect the total number of licensed vehicles, it just moves the balance from PH to HC.

Indeed the service is actually worse, because of the shift from PH to HC, former PH drivers (new HC) conveniently ignore radios when there's streetwork.

My experience has been from delimitiation that the new HC owner drivers tend to work when they know they'll make money, if we face facts its Thurs to Sat, try getting a cab Sun to Wed though.

Believe me people theres got to be another solution.

regards

Captain Cab

Naughty, naughty there's no need to disparage the unrestricted London trade like that.

I'm not a solicitor nor a barister, but surely the legal system in this country relies on facts in order to make judgements.

Surely a judge would ask for evidence that there was unmet demand for HC before he ruled in favour of delimitation. If the complaints from the pubic were equally made against the local PH operators operating under the name "taxis" then surely that evidence must be disgarded when hearing the case for HC delimitation.

Councils need only prove that their restrictions are in the best interest of the people of the borough, nothing at all about the best interest of either HC or PH drivers. When the judge sitting is told the truth about the number of passengers each side of the trade carry and see's that PH carry more, have greater numbers and have no quantative restrictions yet cannot meet customer demand surely they must conclude that a derestricted HC trade would have no chance of meeting the demand during the busy periods.

More emphasis must be placed on the PH sector, the public want to book a "taxi" to be at a certain place at a certain time and be confident that the vehicle is actually there. They also want the choice of vehicle, with PH vehicle type can be requested when booking yet with HC its get into the first vehicle on the rank or wait even longer.

I actually work just outside a city and am not licenced by the city council, we cover a large area both urban and rural and following HC dergulation we have twice as many PH than we do HC. Before delimitation we would cover around 3000 jobs per week with our 28 cars, since deregulation we are doing under 2000 jobs per week and have under 20 cars, we have lost signifigant amounts of work as we have to let people down during the busy periods so they don't use us through the week. Its now harder to run on time and the number of "no shows" has increased dramatically as more HC are sitting outside pubs waiting to pick up people who have pre-booked PH.

I have no inclination to drive HC, when I started driving I had the choice to drive either as I could have afforded to buy a plate, I chose PH and now I have people in Manchester and I guess Sussex telling me that I shouldn't be happy with what I'm doing.

Well I can tell you I have done this job for 18 years and its only since the imergance of the "compensation culture" people like you two have been able to force your opinions onto others and threaten the livlihoods of those who look to put their customers demands before their own.