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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:47 am 
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Aknowledgement to Route One magazine.

Welsh Traffic Commissoner Nick Jones has made it plain that the "dry hiring" of vehicles, where it is claimed the hirer of the vehicle is the operator IS illegal.
The licence held by Caldicot based Go Stretch has been revoked, in addition the ommisioner has disqualified directors Julie & Scott Demaret from holding such a licence for a priod of five years and held that Julie Demaret had lost her repute as transport manager.
The commissioner sais that "dry hiring" was a ruse which had on occasion been attempted by operators whereby they claimed that they were not operating a vehicle as they hired it out, in the same way that any ordinary car hire company did.
Theoretically it was possible to hire a passenger carrying vehicle without the requirements for an O-licence and under certain circumstances a hire arrangement might not be illegal.
However, it was clear that a business which ran limousines on the basis of hiring out vehicles with the suggestion that the hirer was the operator, was a fiction which did not stand up to even the cursory scrutiny.
Theoretically, an individual who hired a vehicle and thereby operated at the invitation of companies like go Stretch would be committing a criminal offence. In practice, it was most unlikely that they would be prosecuted as they have been duped by the so-called hire company. Nevertheless, if Go Stretch did hire out a vehicle to someone else to operate then it would be aiding abetting,counselling and procuring the commission of the offence of operating without an O-licence. The ruse or fiction of "dry hiring" which had been used by some unlicensed operators was illegal.

The article does then goes on to discuss associated matters and of course the poor bleating that " the law doesn't suit us" :cry:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:11 am 
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is there a link to that, and what about one to the equivalent type of thing but less than 9 passenger seats, i.e. PHV/HC limo hirings (or would be should they be plated)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:49 am 
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However, it was clear that a business which ran limousines on the basis of hiring out vehicles with the suggestion that the hirer was the operator, was a fiction which did not stand up to even the cursory scrutiny.


Grandad will still say its Legal :lol:[


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:45 pm 
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IF councils are willing to accomadate limousines under PH, then that's good news right? that way at least there is some form of control.

This U drive scam, come on...please... it was never going to come about. I want to go clay shooting with an AK 47, but the law says i can't. Does that meen i can tell them to begger off, because your laws do not suit me? i think not.

SELF DRIVE LIMOUSINE HIRE! What ever next? Funny how NONE will let the hirer drive the thing.

They know they are illegal operators. They only stand there ground because of the money they wasted on these silly huge over 8 passenger limousines.

What ever next, self fly?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:14 pm 
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seems limos/stretches CAN get a COIF and a PCV licence, in which case, fair play, id have a 8 passenger version as a maximum under PH "speciality" plate (no big council stickers)

but how do you educate little marmaduke and little beyonce who want 12 mates in a stretch hummer for the prom night?....please daddy....please...


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:35 pm 
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No direct link but you can register or email them and ask for a copy of the article.

http://www.route-one.net/index.asp

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:19 pm 
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wannabeeahack wrote:
seems limos/stretches CAN get a COIF and a PCV licence, in which case, fair play, id have a 8 passenger version as a maximum under PH "speciality" plate (no big council stickers)

but how do you educate little marmaduke and little beyonce who want 12 mates in a stretch hummer for the prom night?....please daddy....please...


Some can get a coif, not all. There is a Hummer that has a coif for 18 passengers. Under 9 passengers should either be council plated (private hire or special events) or VOSA licensed as part of a big bus fleet or restricted PCV if it is not your main bussiness.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:45 pm 
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grandad wrote:
wannabeeahack wrote:
seems limos/stretches CAN get a COIF and a PCV licence, in which case, fair play, id have a 8 passenger version as a maximum under PH "speciality" plate (no big council stickers)

but how do you educate little marmaduke and little beyonce who want 12 mates in a stretch hummer for the prom night?....please daddy....please...


Some can get a coif, not all. There is a Hummer that has a coif for 18 passengers. Under 9 passengers should either be council plated (private hire or special events) or VOSA licensed as part of a big bus fleet or restricted PCV if it is not your main bussiness.


i cant do the latter as the "restricted" PCV o-licence for 9-16 passengers specifies "TAXI" operators whereas im PHV even though i run a minibus!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:04 pm 
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I think you will find that VOSA give taxi operator as an example. If you operate your minibus as your main job then you probably can't run on restricted pcv but if your main job is say a postman, then you can.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:10 pm 
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Tulsablue wrote:
Theoretically it was possible to hire a passenger carrying vehicle without the requirements for an O-licence and under certain circumstances a hire arrangement might not be illegal.


There you have it. If you follow the rules it is legal. If you don't follow the rules you get done. This particular operator, it would seem was not following the self drive method correctly.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:46 pm 
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Does this mean that everything that I and many others on this site ever said regarding self drive "limo hire being illegal", has finally been proven to be correct? Not to mention that we did state that bonefide self drive hire was legal.

All those hours of wasted argument simply because some ill informed Barrister convinced some in the limo trade that there was a way of circumventing the law relating to hire or reward.

At this stage of the game I don't feel any great sense of vindication but I do feel drained from the many times I continuously banged my head against a brick wall. I haven't read the article or seen the ruling so I don't know the circumstances but if my understanding is correct this would apply accross the board to any type of limousine operation that didn't conform to licensing regulations either under the 1976 act or PSV legislation.

I would like to hear the opinion of the gentleman who argued vehemently that the practice was lawfull and placed so much faith in the Barristers opinion. I think his take on this developement would be most appreciated.

Regards

JD

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:04 pm 
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grandad wrote:
Tulsablue wrote:
Theoretically it was possible to hire a passenger carrying vehicle without the requirements for an O-licence and under certain circumstances a hire arrangement might not be illegal.


There you have it. If you follow the rules it is legal. If you don't follow the rules you get done. This particular operator, it would seem was not following the self drive method correctly.


Exactly. There is nothing stopping anyone hiring out a limousine as long as it is REAL ****SELF**** DRIVE HIRE.

Regards

JD

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:18 pm 
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I expect another scam will take this ones place.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:36 pm 
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Tulsablue wrote:
The commissioner sais that "dry hiring" was a ruse which had on occasion been attempted by operators whereby they claimed that they were not operating a vehicle as they hired it out, in the same way that any ordinary car hire company did.
Theoretically it was possible to hire a passenger carrying vehicle without the requirements for an O-licence and under certain circumstances a hire arrangement might not be illegal.
However, it was clear that a business which ran limousines on the basis of hiring out vehicles with the suggestion that the hirer was the operator, was a fiction which did not stand up to even the cursory scrutiny.
Theoretically, an individual who hired a vehicle and thereby operated at the invitation of companies like go Stretch would be committing a criminal offence. In practice, it was most unlikely that they would be prosecuted as they have been duped by the so-called hire company. Nevertheless, if Go Stretch did hire out a vehicle to someone else to operate then it would be aiding abetting,counselling and procuring the commission of the offence of operating without an O-licence. The ruse or fiction of "dry hiring" which had been used by some unlicensed operators was illegal.

A scam is a scam is a scam. Thank goodness the Welsh TC has acknowledged that. =D>

There will still be some in the Limo biz who think it isn't a scam, but when did they ever give a flying f*** about the laws of the land. Image

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:38 pm 
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grandad wrote:
There you have it. If you follow the rules it is legal. If you don't follow the rules you get done. This particular operator, it would seem was not following the self drive method correctly.

But who in their right mind is going to let someone they have never met drive their £100,000 motor? :?

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