Taxi Driver Online

Jeff what is it that you are trying that say in this respect, is it that you believe the normal Ministry of Transport test is sufficient to obtain a Taxi or Private hire vehicle license and councils shouldn't be able to determine what should be a hackney carriage and what condition these vehicles should be in?

Regards

JD

Jeff what is it that you are trying that say in this respect, is it that you believe the normal Ministry of Transport test is sufficient to obtain a Taxi or Private hire vehicle license and councils shouldn't be able to determine what should be a hackney carriage and what condition these vehicles should be in?

Regards

JD

Exactly - because whether we like it or not, that is the law with respect to mechanically propelled vehicles. The function of the LA's is to regulate there local services, and that does not entail dictating what vehicles may, or may not be suitable for trading when using the public roads - a successful application for a mandatory vehicle licence fulfills that requirement. An observation of the diversity of makes of vehicles currently employed in the carriage of passengers throughout the UK would support that argument.
If anyone believes that an LA does have authority to dictate which licenced motor vehicles are included or excluded from being used as an HC, then please cite the enactment which hands down such powers.

So can we agree that your not complaining about the cost of an MOT but the ability of a licensing authority to determine if a vehicle is suitable for use as a Taxi or private hire vehicle in their prescribed licensing area?

Regards

JD

Would Jeff agree that under the 1847 Town police clauses act amended by the 1976 LGMPA a licensing authority has the legal right to license hackney carriage and private hire vehicles?


Section 46 Vehicle, drivers’ and operators’ licences

(1) Except as authorised by this Part of this Act—

(a) no person being the proprietor of any vehicle, not being a hackney carriage [or London Cab] in respect of which a vehicle licence is in force, shall use or permit the same to be used in a controlled district as a private hire vehicle without having for such a vehicle a current licence under section 48 of this Act;

(b) no person shall in a controlled district act as driver of any private hire vehicle without having a current licence under section 51 of this Act;

(c) no person being the proprietor of a private hire vehicle licensed under this Part of this Act shall employ as the driver thereof for the purpose of any hiring any person who does not have a current licence under the said section 51;

(d) no person shall in a controlled district operate any vehicle as a private hire vehicle without having a current licence under section 55 of this Act;

(e) no person licensed under the said section 55 shall in a controlled district operate any vehicle as a private hire vehicle—

(i) if for the vehicle a current licence under the said section 48 is not in force; or

(ii) if the driver does not have a current licence under the said section 51.

(2) If any person knowingly contravenes the provisions of this section, he shall be guilty of an offence.

Regards

JD

Would Jeff agree that Section 48 1.A.3... 4 and 5 of the LGMPA confers on the council the right to determine if a vehicle is mechanicly sound and comfortable for the purpose of licensing that vehicle as a private hire vehicle?

48 Licensing of private hire vehicles

(1) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, a district council may on the receipt of an application from the proprietor of any vehicle for the grant in respect of such vehicle of a licence to use the vehicle as a private hire vehicle, grant in respect thereof a vehicle licence:

Provided that a district council shall not grant such a licence unless they are satisfied—

(a) that the vehicle is—

(i) suitable in type, size and design for use as a private hire vehicle;

(ii) not of such design and appearance as to lead any person to believe that the vehicle is a hackney carriage;

(iii) in a suitable mechanical condition;

(iv) safe; and

(v) comfortable;

(b) that there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle a policy of insurance or such security as complies with the requirements of [Part VI of the Road Traffic Act 1988],

and shall not refuse such a licence for the purpose of limiting the number of vehicles in respect of which such licences are granted by the council.

(2) A district council may attach to the grant of a licence under this section such conditions as they may consider reasonably necessary including, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provisions of this subsection, conditions requiring or prohibiting the display of signs on or from the vehicle to which the licence relates.

(3) In every vehicle licence granted under this section there shall be specified—

(a) the name and address of—

(i) the applicant; and

(ii) every other person who is a proprietor of the private hire vehicle in respect of which the licence is granted, or who is concerned, either solely or in partnership with any other person, in the keeping, employing or letting on hire of the private hire vehicle;

(b) the number of the licence which shall correspond with the number to be painted or marked on the plate or disc to be exhibited on the private hire vehicle in accordance with subsection (6) of this section;

(c) the conditions attached to the grant of the licence; and

(d) such other particulars as the district council consider reasonably necessary.

(4) Every licence granted under this section shall—

(a) be signed by an authorised officer of the council which granted it;

(b) relate to not more than one private hire vehicle; and

(c) remain in force for such period not being longer than one year as the district council may specify in the licence.

(5) Where a district council grant under this section a vehicle licence in respect of a private hire vehicle they shall issue a plate or disc identifying that vehicle as a private hire vehicle in respect of which a vehicle licence has been granted.

(6) (a) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, no person shall use or permit to be used in a controlled district as a private hire vehicle a vehicle in respect of which a licence has been granted under this section unless the plate or disc issued in accordance with subsection (5) of this section is exhibited on the vehicle in such manner as the district council shall prescribe by condition attached to the grant of the licence.

(b) If any person without reasonable excuse contravenes the provisions of this subsection he shall be guilty of an offence.

(7) Any person aggrieved by the refusal of a district council to grant a vehicle licence under this section or by any conditions specified in such a licence, may appeal to a magistrates’ court.

Regards

JD

Would Jeff agree that a licensing authority has the power to stop and mechanicaly test any vehicle licensed by them and if found to be unroadworthy have powers to instantly remove the plate until such time the defects have been put right and tested by the council?

Section 60 Suspension and revocation of vehicle licences

(1) Notwithstanding anything in the Act of 1847 or in this Part of this Act, a district council may suspend or revoke, or (on application therefor under section 40 of the Act of 1847 or section 48 of this Act, as the case may be) refuse to renew a vehicle licence on any of the following grounds—

(a) that the hackney carriage or private hire vehicle is unfit for use as a hackney carriage or private hire vehicle;

(b) any offence under, or non-compliance with, the provisions of the Act of 1847 or of this Part of this Act by the operator or driver; or

(c) any other reasonable cause.

(2) Where a district council suspend, revoke or refuse to renew any licence under this section they shall give to the proprietor of the vehicle notice of the grounds on which the licence has been suspended or revoked or on which they have refused to renew the licence within fourteen days of such suspension, revocation or refusal.

Regards

JD

Would Jeff agree that section 68 of the LGMPA confers on a licesning authority the right to determine the fitness of a Hackney carriage and private hire vehicle? If so then does it not follow that a council has the right to detemine "at any time" (and that includes before it is licensed) that the vehicle is fit to be granted a license?

68 Fitness of hackney carriages and private hire vehicles

Any authorised officer of the council in question or any constable shall have power at all reasonable times to inspect and test, for the purpose of ascertaining its fitness, any hackney carriage or private hire vehicle licensed by a district council, or any taximeter affixed to such a vehicle, and if he is not satisfied as to the fitness of the hackney carriage or private hire vehicle or as to the accuracy of its taximeter he may by notice in writing require the proprietor of the hackney carriage or private hire vehicle to make it or its taximeter available for further inspection and testing at such reasonable time and place as may be specified in the notice and suspend the vehicle licence until such time as such authorised officer or constable is so satisfied:

Provided that, if the authorised officer or constable is not so satisfied before the expiration of a period of two months, the said licence shall, by virtue of this section, be deemed to have been revoked and subsections (2) and (3) of section 60 of this Act shall apply with any necessary modifications.

Regards

JD

I understand that in areas other than London different rules apply but for the purpose of my discussion I am referring to the areas covered by the PCO and those other LAs who still require (hopefully they will continue) purpose built vehicles. In London in particular, which is the only area of which I have experience, it is the PH driver's representatives who are for ever carping on about regulations etc. Huh! They even want to license bloody rickshaws now! All I can say is that even coach, bus and HGV drivers need a special license and are governed by their respective regulations so why shouldn't Hackney drivers? Feel free to join the club just as soon as you are ready to fulfill the requirements.(Just in London Jeff)

I understand the origins were centred on London but Jeff's argument is that a standard MOT is sufficient no matter where you reside.

If we can establish the fact that a licensing authority is empowered with the legal right to test a vehicle for fitness, which includes mechanical condition then perhaps we have moved a step closer to convincing Jeff that his believe is wrong? Rather than just saying to Jeff, he might be wrong? He wants it pointed out why he might be wrong?

I entered this debate with an open mind but as yet I have found no evidence to suggest that a licensing authority doesn't have the power to test vehicles and indeed continue to check those vehicles periodicaly.

Jeff's main argument from what I can gather is that all licensing authorities shouldn't charge for an additional test over and above the standard MOT.

I'm trying to lay it out in simple terms why a licensing authority does have the legal right to determine what should be licensed and that they do have the legal power to carry out and charge for mechanical fitness tests.

Regards

JD

Hello JD,
The problem exist because the licencing process for mechanically propelled vehicles occurs prior to any involvement with a local authority, and is generally undertaken taken through the Post Office. When a vehicle is presented at an LA's passing station the keeper of the vehicle must already be in possession of a valid vehicle licence for that vehicle to be registered with the LA. The granting of a "form of licence" by an LA is a perfunctory act, as the excise duty to use that vehicle on the public has already been paid as an integral part of the vehicle licence.

I would tend to disagree there Jeff a vehicle doesn't officially need to have a current MOT before it is presented to a licensing authority for a hackney carriage or P/H vehicle license. Does the law not allow for a vehicle to be driven to any MOT station as long as there is evidence that the vehicle is indeed being tested at that particualr time and date? Once a vehicle is licensed it may never have a standard MOT in its lifetime as long as it remains a Hackney or Private hire vehicle.

So it doesn't always fit that a vehicle licensed for the purpose of Taxi provision need have an MOT before it is licensed.

Regards

JD

Hello JD,
It is not the issue as to whether the vehicle keeper has a MOT certificate, that is incidental ( New vehicles do not require this) - the significant point is that the keeper of the vehicle has a valid vehicle licence as that licence confirms that the keeper has paid the Excise Duty which entitles the keeper to use that vehicle as a HC - and that is obtained before an attendance at an LA's passing station.
Regards,
Jeff

But you can't get an excise license without an mot or insurance certificate. The fee paid to a council is for the MOT certificate not the excise license.

Regards

JD

Hello JD,
Neither of those 2 documents required for registration through the Sec State for Transports executive agency the DVLA, are dependent upon an LA for their issue.
Regards,
Jeff

Yes I know Jeff, I was referring to Road Tax.

Regards

JD