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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:58 pm 
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bloodnock wrote:

I think its A fair bet...........and unless Vosa take over the councils reins and start calling the shots nationally on Taxis and PH i'tll probably stay that way...


Have you read the consultation?

CC

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:13 pm 
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Ive been self-unemployed for 10 years

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:16 pm 
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If suppose the reason I'm a little concerned about this is in a recent meeting held with the DFT the NTA were specifically asked about views on drivers hours.

This comes in the wake of the question asked in parliament.

I dont think it would take a great deal of ammendment to include licensed drivers.

CC

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:19 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
bloodnock wrote:

I think its A fair bet...........and unless Vosa take over the councils reins and start calling the shots nationally on Taxis and PH i'tll probably stay that way...


Have you read the consultation?

CC


Yes i have..and its not applicable to us...


Heres the Important bit:

Who should read this consultation document?
3. The following will have an interest in this document:

Any mobile worker who is subject to the Directive;
Any road haulage or road passenger transport operator or agency who employs mobile workers subject to the Directive;
Any road haulage or road passenger transport operator or mobile worker who operates on vehicles subject to the EU drivers’ hours rules (Regulation (EC) No 561/2006) or the AETR Agreement (see paragraph 5) and who currently regard themselves as out of scope of the Directive due to their perceived self-employment status;
Anyone else with an interest in the carriage of freight or passengers by road.


All this is for Hauliers or operators of Buses that have 8 or more passenger seats..It only applies to vehicle of less than 8 seats if those Vehicles charge Individual fares such as smaller Scheduled route operators might do......None of this and Im 100% dead certain of it applies to Taxis or Private hire drivers.

Dont take my word for it though...phone up Vosa and ask them...its getting a lot of peoples Knickers in a twist here needlessly who have nothing to do with these rulings (EU drivers’ hours rules (Regulation (EC) No 561/2006) or the AETR Agreement (see paragraph 5) unless they happen to run a PSV vehicle that covers more than 50 km on a Regular Journey.


The bit that reads "Anyone else with an interest in the carriage of freight or passengers by road" is not aimed at us...but at anyone that may have another interest for whatever reason in general....


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:23 pm 
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bloodnock wrote:

Yes i have..and its not applicable to us...


Heres the Important bit:

Who should read this consultation document?
3. The following will have an interest in this document:

Any mobile worker who is subject to the Directive;
Any road haulage or road passenger transport operator or agency who employs mobile workers subject to the Directive;
Any road haulage or road passenger transport operator or mobile worker who operates on vehicles subject to the EU drivers’ hours rules (Regulation (EC) No 561/2006) or the AETR Agreement (see paragraph 5) and who currently regard themselves as out of scope of the Directive due to their perceived self-employment status;
Anyone else with an interest in the carriage of freight or passengers by road.


All this is for Hauliers or operators of Buses that have 8 or more passenger seats..It only applies to vehicle of less than 8 seats if those Vehicles charge Individual fares such as smaller Scheduled route operators might do......None of this and Im 100% dead certain of it applies to Taxis or Private hire drivers.

Dont take my word for it though...phone up Vosa and ask them...its getting a lot of peoples Knickers in a twist here needlessly who have nothing to do with these rulings (EU drivers’ hours rules (Regulation (EC) No 561/2006) or the AETR Agreement (see paragraph 5) unless they happen to run a PSV vehicle that covers more than 50 km on a Regular Journey.


The bit that reads "Anyone else with an interest in the carriage of freight or passengers by road" is not aimed at us...but at anyone that may have another interest for whatever reason in general....


Good.

Then why would the DFT ask the NTA for views on drivers hours?

CC

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:31 pm 
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bloodnock wrote:
Anyone else with an interest in the carriage of freight or passengers by road.


This is a catch all phrase. It could be used to include us, despite any assurances to the contrary.

Better to be concerned by nothing than oblivious to something........

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:35 pm 
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gusmac wrote:

This is a catch all phrase. It could be used to include us, despite any assurances to the contrary.

Better to be concerned by nothing than oblivious to something........


thats twice in one evening :lol:

CC

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:34 am 
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gusmac wrote:
bloodnock wrote:
Anyone else with an interest in the carriage of freight or passengers by road.


This is a catch all phrase. It could be used to include us, despite any assurances to the contrary.

Better to be concerned by nothing than oblivious to something........


heres another Extract that Proves its b*gger all to do with taxis or PH..

Background to the Proposals
6. The Directive does not currently apply to the self-employed, but indicates that the Directive’s provisions shall apply to self-employed mobile workers from 23 March 2009, once the Commission had presented a report and consequent legislative proposal to the Council and the European Parliament on this issue. This provision came about as part of the conciliation agreement between the Council and the European Parliament when the Directive was negotiated.



The part I highlighted in red Obviously Implies that if your not currently self employed you would already have to Conform to these EU drivers hours directive regulations, it however would have applied to the employed amongst you had it been anything at all to do with Taxi or PH....and it doesnt apply to the employees in our Midst in the same way that it wont Apply after march to the self employed amongst us either...simply because you aint PSV or Hauliers. its only the self employed of the PSV and Haulier groups that the rules change for on the 23rd of March 2009..... ](*,)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:43 am 
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Thanks Bloodnock, I get the picture.

However, at risk from wrath from above;

Restrictions on hours worked.

David Farmer raised this point which had reared its head some time ago as a result of an EU directive. The question is as to whether the trade felt that there was an argument for restricting hours. This has come to the fore because of a Parliamentary Question raised by the MP for Bradford, Eric Pickles. Apparently one of his constituents has been seriously hurt in an accident where the taxi driver who was driving the vehicle that the person was in had worked a very long shift and might thus not have been as vigilant as he should have been.

Mr Conyon made the point that if hours were restricted people would only work at busy times. This would leave a situation where it may be difficult to obtain taxis at other times. Mr Conyon raised the question of the definition of “working hours”. A situation had been put that a hackney carriage driver who was waiting on the rank would be deemed as “working” and thus would be in a situation where the 48 hours or whatever figure was fixed would be running against him. It had been suggested that a private hire driver, sitting in his private hire office, would not be deemed to be working.

On balance, the Association’s view is that for obvious economic reasons and because it was thought that most drivers who worked long hours were sensible enough to take breaks, any restrictions on hours would be unwise especially in the present climate.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:29 am 
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captain cab wrote:
Thanks Bloodnock, I get the picture.

However, at risk from wrath from above;

Restrictions on hours worked.

David Farmer raised this point which had reared its head some time ago as a result of an EU directive. The question is as to whether the trade felt that there was an argument for restricting hours. This has come to the fore because of a Parliamentary Question raised by the MP for Bradford, Eric Pickles. Apparently one of his constituents has been seriously hurt in an accident where the taxi driver who was driving the vehicle that the person was in had worked a very long shift and might thus not have been as vigilant as he should have been.

Mr Conyon made the point that if hours were restricted people would only work at busy times. This would leave a situation where it may be difficult to obtain taxis at other times. Mr Conyon raised the question of the definition of “working hours”. A situation had been put that a hackney carriage driver who was waiting on the rank would be deemed as “working” and thus would be in a situation where the 48 hours or whatever figure was fixed would be running against him. It had been suggested that a private hire driver, sitting in his private hire office, would not be deemed to be working.

On balance, the Association’s view is that for obvious economic reasons and because it was thought that most drivers who worked long hours were sensible enough to take breaks, any restrictions on hours would be unwise especially in the present climate.


Fair comment.....Its odd to say though that a PH sitting in his office might be deemed not to be working...if that held true the Days I spend "Sitting in my Office" Doing my accounts isnt working either i guess, yet if I paid someone else to do the Books they might see it somewhat differently as would the future EU work hours directive people.

Could I not argue that as a one man band that all the hours I spend sitting in the office waiting for a booking were going against me in exactly the same way as a Hack sitting in a rank for hours would go against them. Im sure sitting for possibly hours at time in a rank is as Tedious and sleep inducing if not more Tedious and sleep inducing than sitting in an office.

Unless both PH and Hacks are allowed the exact same amount of driving time then it starts to become an Imbalance and raises questions as to the legalities that Prejudices between the Two forms of transportation.

If they tried that Crap Id suddenly and Miraculously not be spending any time in the Office and my every living minute would be for driving only....

the thing with being a self employed person is that if you have no money making work to do you wont have any other related work to do either...EG..no Income no need for accounts..or no Driving no cars to clean and hoover out.

Yet if your Moderately succesful and get say 44 hours of driving a week you would never ever get the time to do all the other jobs that are required to service and maintain your business. as you realitically have no choice but to carry out a fair proprtion of non driving hour jobs This in turn would also make it difficult if your a PH driver to service his customers needs adequately and to maintain that the public do not endure difficulties in getting a Ph vehicle with the few remaining workable hours you may have left after youve spent 20 hours on the Mundane non Driving work......that Argument holds good whether your PH or Hack....some rural areas just Dont need Taxis as they have thousands of Miles of rural roads with no ranks and No passing taxis to be hailed...areas where only PH is viable.

It has to be the same rule for Both groups..good or bad.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:33 am 
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Whilst I'm shocked at some of the hours some drivers work I would be equally shocked if they treated the working hours of a HC as different to that of PH. I personally wouldn't be affected unless they force me to work more and not less hours :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:34 am 
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I dont think were disagreeing that 'if' driver hours were to be implemented they wouldnt have an impact, I think were disagreeing on this bit of legislation.

Personally, I think I agree with gusmac, I'd rather err on the side of caution and give a possibly useless case as to why a HC driver should be exempt. Even if you are proved to be right and we aint included anyway, for the price of a stamp?

CC

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:37 am 
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captain cab wrote:
I dont think were disagreeing that 'if' driver hours were to be implemented they wouldnt have an impact, I think were disagreeing on this bit of legislation.

Personally, I think I agree with gusmac, I'd rather err on the side of caution and give a possibly useless case as to why a HC driver should be exempt. Even if you are proved to be right and we aint included anyway, for the price of a stamp?

CC


Im off to bed...........I just hope to hell I dont dream about bloody driving or the EU will those bloody hours off me too....... :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:40 am 
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bloodnock wrote:
captain cab wrote:
I dont think were disagreeing that 'if' driver hours were to be implemented they wouldnt have an impact, I think were disagreeing on this bit of legislation.

Personally, I think I agree with gusmac, I'd rather err on the side of caution and give a possibly useless case as to why a HC driver should be exempt. Even if you are proved to be right and we aint included anyway, for the price of a stamp?

CC


Im off to bed...........I just hope to hell I dont dream about bloody driving or the EU will those bloody hours off me too....... :roll:


You should think of nice things before you close your eyes, that should help :D

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:44 am 
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toots wrote:
bloodnock wrote:
captain cab wrote:
I dont think were disagreeing that 'if' driver hours were to be implemented they wouldnt have an impact, I think were disagreeing on this bit of legislation.

Personally, I think I agree with gusmac, I'd rather err on the side of caution and give a possibly useless case as to why a HC driver should be exempt. Even if you are proved to be right and we aint included anyway, for the price of a stamp?

CC


Im off to bed...........I just hope to hell I dont dream about bloody driving or the EU will those bloody hours off me too....... :roll:


You should think of nice things before you close your eyes, that should help :D


I darent..otherwise id never get to sleep......... :wink:


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