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PHV Booking Conditions
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Author:  the thinker [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  PHV Booking Conditions
Clarification please on PHV bookings, we are told by our LA people that anyone can approach a PHV and as long as the driver radios the booking in before the passenger enters the vehicle then it is pre booked and no rules have been broken.I was always under the impression that PHV bookings could only be made via a land line telephone.
Author:  JD [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PHV Booking Conditions
the thinker wrote:
Clarification please on PHV bookings, we are told by our LA people that anyone can approach a PHV and as long as the driver radios the booking in before the passenger enters the vehicle then it is pre booked and no rules have been broken.I was always under the impression that PHV bookings could only be made via a land line telephone.


Your LO is wrong, there is bundles of case law on this subject. Chorley is the first that springs to mind along with knowsley v Thorpe Liverpool crown court 1992. I'll dig some out for you if you havent found any on TDO by the time I've finished what I'm doing.

Regards

JD
Author:  JD [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
Chorley Borough Council v Thomas

ADMINISTRATIVE COURT

MAURICE KAY J

17 July 2001

[2001] All ER (D) 210 (Jul)

Road traffic – Hackney carriage – Plying for hire – Mini-cab – Mini-cab parked outside public house – Member of public asking whether cab free – Driver confirming cab free and asking for destination – Driver telling passenger fare – Driver contacting base by radio and booking journey – Whether prima facie case of plying for hire – Town Police Clauses Act 1847, s 45.

The respondent, T, drove a vehicle that was licensed and marked as a private hire vehicle. The vehicle was stationary, just off the main road outside a public house and near a restaurant. T was approached by L, who asked whether T was free. T said that he was and L entered the vehicle. T then asked L for his name and where he was going. He then informed L of the fare that would be charged. Before the journey commenced, T contacted his control base by radio to book the journey. The vehicle did not enter onto the main road until the booking was completed. At the end of the journey, L paid the fare and T drove off.

T was charged with plying for hire without a hackney carriage licence, contrary to s 45 of the Town Police Clauses Act 1847, as amended. At trial before the district judge, T submitted at the close of the prosecution case that there was no case to answer. The prosecution contended that the above facts gave rise to a prima facie case of plying for hire in that the presence of the car amounted to an invitation to treat and the later contractual offer of the fare was irrelevant.

The district judge found that there was no evidence of how long the vehicle had been stationary, that the booking had been made immediately after L had entered the vehicle, and that the journey had taken place after the booking. He concluded that in those circumstances, there was no evidence that T had been plying for hire. The district judge therefore acceded to the submission of no case to answer and dismissed the information.

The prosecution appealed by way of case stated. The question for the opinion of the High Court was whether the driver of a marked mini-cab, whose vehicle was not a licensed hackney carriage, was plying for hire if he, without more, was asked by a member of public if his vehicle was free and, having indicated that it was and received details of the prospective journey and disclosed a price for it, placed a booking with his base before the journey started.

The appeal would be allowed.

In the circumstances of the instant case, the reasons given by the district judge for finding that there was no case to answer indicated that he was influenced by matters that were irrelevant to the issue of plying for hire in the circumstances of the instant case. That which took place after T had informed L of the fare, whether it amounted to a booking via the taxi base or confirmation of a booking taken at the scene, was not relevant to the question of whether a prima facie case had been made out.

Accordingly, as the trial had not reached a conclusion, the question would be answered in the affirmative, but with the rider that what was being decided was that, without more, there was a case to answer.

Nottingham City Council v Wooding [1994] RTR 72, Rose v Welbeck Motors Ltd [1962] 2 All ER 801, Cogley v Sherwood [1959] 2 All ER 313 and Sales v Lake [1922] 1 KB 553 considered.

Martin Carter (instructed by Richard Townson, Chorley) for the authority.
Ian Ponter (instructed by Allansons, Bolton) for T.
Author:  the thinker [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  PHV booking conditions
Thank you for that JD, I think the premise that our Lo is using is that all the business has been carried out BEFORE the person actually enters the vehicle, which was not the case in your enclosed article.

As if this situation is not bad enough we also have an out of area hackney who rides through the town displaying a door sticker with a mobile telephone number, our Lo tells us that if someone spots this and telephones him he can accept the booking, surely this is touting outside his area by displaying a mobile and not a land line number. The world certainly is a strange place.
Author:  JD [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PHV booking conditions
the thinker wrote:
Thank you for that JD, I think the premise that our Lo is using is that all the business has been carried out BEFORE the person actually enters the vehicle, which was not the case in your enclosed article.

As if this situation is not bad enough we also have an out of area hackney who rides through the town displaying a door sticker with a mobile telephone number, our Lo tells us that if someone spots this and telephones him he can accept the booking, surely this is touting outside his area by displaying a mobile and not a land line number. The world certainly is a strange place.


I thought I had posted this but I can't see it? Anyway i'll post it again just in case it got lost?

It doesn't make any difference if the punter is in or out of the vehicle it is an offence to take a booking off the street and then take hire. Like I said, there is ample case law supporting this, not just Chorley and Knowsley.

In the Knowsley case the punter wasn't in the vehicle and he didn't even use the driver to phone the booking through to the office. The driver told the punter to go to the phone box, phone his firm and he would take him.

He was convicted of plying for hire and fined 1000 pounds.

The judge said the method used by the appellant was a sham, he could not flout the law for the price of ten pence.

Regards

JD
Author:  steveo [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PHV Booking Conditions
the thinker wrote:
Clarification please on PHV bookings, we are told by our LA people that anyone can approach a PHV and as long as the driver radios the booking in before the passenger enters the vehicle then it is pre booked and no rules have been broken.I was always under the impression that PHV bookings could only be made via a land line telephone.


your right, telephone bookkings only or walk in to office. does not have to be a land line.

booking over the radio is illegal, as the fare could have been touted.
Author:  Sussex [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PHV Booking Conditions
the thinker wrote:
Clarification please on PHV bookings, we are told by our LA people that anyone can approach a PHV and as long as the driver radios the booking in before the passenger enters the vehicle then it is pre booked and no rules have been broken.I was always under the impression that PHV bookings could only be made via a land line telephone.

Where I differ from what's been said depends on what the customers asks for.

If he asks the driver if he is free and the drivers says yes, then IMHO that's illegal, but if he asks the driver if he can book him a cab through his office, then I think that's ok.

If then that driver is first on the point, then again IMHO, he is entitled to take the job.

So there. :roll:
Author:  Eric the viking [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sussex wrote:

Quote:
If he asks the driver if he is free and the drivers says yes, then IMHO that's illegal, but if he asks the driver if he can book him a cab through his office, then I think that's ok.

If then that driver is first on the point, then again IMHO, he is entitled to take the job.


Perception is exactly what it is all about, how the situation is presented is key here.

Regards Eric 8)
Author:  JD [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PHV Booking Conditions
Sussex wrote:

Where I differ from what's been said depends on what the customers asks for.

If he asks the driver if he is free and the drivers says yes, then IMHO that's illegal, but if he asks the driver if he can book him a cab through his office, then I think that's ok.

If then that driver is first on the point, then again IMHO, he is entitled to take the job.

So there. :roll:


Sussex, the poster did ask a specific Question he said.

Clarification please on PHV bookings, we are told by our LA people that anyone can approach a PHV and as long as the driver radios the booking in before the passenger enters the vehicle then it is pre booked and no rules have been broken

Whats your opinion of that specific aspect of his post?

In most cases the concept of plying for hire is the fact that you are immediately available for hire. Standing in a public place with a clipboard in your hand taking bookings off the street would no doubt come under both touting and aiding and abetting plying for hire, if not plying for hire itself?.

Regards

JD
Author:  Sussex [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PHV Booking Conditions
JD wrote:
Sussex, the poster did ask a specific Question he said.

I know, I'm having one of my annoying days. :D
Author:  Sussex [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PHV Booking Conditions
JD wrote:
Clarification please on PHV bookings, we are told by our LA people that anyone can approach a PHV and as long as the driver radios the booking in before the passenger enters the vehicle then it is pre booked and no rules have been broken

Whats your opinion of that specific aspect of his post?

I feel I'm nearer the LO than you.

Each booking/approach is going to be different from the next.

If someone asked me if I was free then I would ask have you booked a car? 100 times out of 100 they will say they haven't, so then I will book it for them via my radio.

If I'm the next on the plot/zone and get the job, then I will take it and them. :wink:
Author:  JD [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PHV Booking Conditions
Sussex wrote:


If someone asked me if I was free then I would ask have you booked a car? 100 times out of 100 they will say they haven't, so then I will book it for them via my radio.

If I'm the next on the plot/zone and get the job, then I will take it and them. :wink:


Whats your take on this? How many unsuspecting drivers would have thought this approaqch by the driver was legal? I think most people would.

Liverpool Crown court

December 12 1992

Judge Clark

Knowsley Borough Council v John Thorpe

Appeal against conviction of plying for hire

At Magistrates court.

Appellant while on a public house car park was approached by a member of the public who asked the appellant if he was free for hire? The appellant told this member of the public that if he went to a nearby phone box and called the company who the appellant worked for he would then pick them up.

The appellant was duly convicted at the magistrate's court of plying for hire.

Fines and costs 1000 pounds.

Judge Clark.

The method used by the appellant in telling the member of the public to phone the company he worked for and then taking them as passengers is a sham.

The appellant cannot flout the law for the sake of ten pence.

Appeal denied.


Regards

JD
Author:  JD [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
So basically what your saying is? If the car park in question was the plot and you were the only cab on the plot and you were approached by a member of the public who asked you to book a hire with your company, through your car radio system, you would be completely within the law to take him as a passenger?

I ask the question because I don't see much to distinguish between the two scenario's. The one I present in your case and that of Knowsley. Can you see a difference and if so what is it?

Regards

JD
Author:  Sussex [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
JD wrote:
So basically what your saying is? If the car park in question was the plot and you were the only cab on the plot and you were approached by a member of the public who asked you to book a hire with your company, through your car radio system, you would be completely within the law to take him as a passenger?

In my opinion yes. The difference is small, but I feel valid.

In the Liverpool senario I suspect the driver asked the punter to ring his office and ask for him, whereas in my senario I would book it for whoever's next on the plot/zone.

And if it happened to be me, then so be it.

I also think in my situation if I was acting illegally, then it would be for picking up without a taxi license, whereas in Liverpool the charge was plying.
Author:  JD [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sussex wrote:
JD wrote:
So basically what your saying is? If the car park in question was the plot and you were the only cab on the plot and you were approached by a member of the public who asked you to book a hire with your company, through your car radio system, you would be completely within the law to take him as a passenger?

In my opinion yes. The difference is small, but I feel valid.

In the Liverpool senario I suspect the driver asked the punter to ring his office and ask for him, whereas in my senario I would book it for whoever's next on the plot/zone.

And if it happened to be me, then so be it.


So basically what your saying is that any private hire vehicle can park up anywhere they like and when approached by a member of the public as long as you ask them have they booked a car and they say no, you will book one for them there and then and then proceed to take them once the job is called out? Would that be about right?


Regards

JD
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