Taxi Driver Online

OK I have a situation that I need very accurate advice .
I will thank everyone in advance for sound 100% information regarding this matter.

I will keep this simple, here is the scenario.
I am a licensed hackney carriage proprietor licenced in area "A"
where I work and ply for hire as a "Hac".
I live in area "B" where my local council who controls area "B" says I need to obtain a
operators licence to accept bookings frrom my home address in area "B".
They mention if I advertise to accept advance bookings and operate with a company name or advertise in any way outside my licencing area I will need a operator licence.

At this time I am high 90% sure they are wrong and intend to challenge there decision.
Here is my thoughts on the matter.
I am a licensed hackney carriage driver and I take bookings by phone from my office
( which is my car / taxi ) I do advertise by giving every passenger a card and have an internet site with a booking form so I am near sure I can take bookings using these methods without obtaining an operator licence.
Operator licences are meant for bookings taken for Private hire cars and NOT taxis.
So if I am outside my licencing area and in area "B" can I accept the booking by phone ( Mobile ) ?
Can I give business cards out and accept bookings in area "B" ?
I mean accept bookings by phone ( advanced bookings ) NOT PLYING FOR HIRE.
I have read the Gladen v Brentwood case law and I think I am right.
Can someone be 100% sure and give me the answer to my questions.

By the way and this may be totally irrelevant but area A and B borders one another.

To put it another way !
If I advertise on the internet and you see the advert from another part of the UK do I need a PH Operators license to accept these bookings ?

More to my point is this.....
If I am in my home just over the border am I not supposed to take a booking off the same number I use when I am in my area ?
The council where I live have said I quote "After further investigation by myself, and discussion with you, and other authorities, it was identified that a person who only has a hackney cariage proprietor/driver licence does not require a private hire operator licence."
so it should end there right ??????????

Or am I missing something regarding advertising as a hackney driver.

Please do not think I am asking this to aid the cross border issue, this is a genuine question.

Regards Steve

Here is the bones of my case to explain my situation a bit further.

I will give you a quick run down of things.
I began my business here some time ago now and was told I needed an operating licence by the council where I live.
So I got one, but the licence took over 1 month to get here.
In that time I was told "You can not begin to work under your chosen trading name until you actually have the licence" so I waited and asked can I begin to trade....I was told no, no no
So then I spoke to a very good friend I met on a taxi forum and he adviced me I have been mis-informed and I should not have been issued a licence as I am a hac......
After a while ( This is the letter I have ) I will quote directly from it.
"After further investigation by myself, and discussion with you, and other authorities, it was identified that a person who only has a hackney cariage proprietor/driver licence does not require a private hire operator licence."
Amongs other things relating to my case what I will not mention.
So I thought that was settled.
Then I said "hang on Ive lost 4 weeks pay cos he told me I needed the licence and I never did"
I even got a refund for the fee....
Now I get a letter saying are you advertising and taking bookings from your home address ?
and please inform us of the vehicles you use...
So this is why I need the questions answered,
He is bugged as I want loss of earnings for the 4 week period isnt he....
So now he wants me to answer the questions ( Why should I ? ) I aint licenced with him.
Or is there a seperate advertising law I do not know about...

Regards Steve

A person only needs a private hire operator’s license if they intend to operate private hire vehicles. Gladen v Brentwood council. The legislation for private hire vehicles, drivers and operators is totally different to that of hackney carriage legislation.

Taxiphone in Manchester operate vehicles from at least two other authorities, practically every authority in England and Wales are now aware and accept the Gladen ruling even though they may not like it.

You do not have to respond to the licensing department in respect of operating hackney carriage vehicles but it would be wise to write them a letter informing them that you or any agent working on your behalf do not operate private hire vehicles for the purpose of private hire under the terms of the 1976 Local Government miscellaneous provisions act. Furthermore you wish to inform them that you should have been informed of this when you first inquired about the need for such a license?

You are quite at liberty to advertise your hackney carriage private hire service in any area you wish.

Perhaps you might wish to inform us of which authority it is that gave you the wrong information?

Regards

JD

_________________
Copyright notice © The contents of this post are copyright of JD and are not to be reproduced outside of TDO without written permission.

Hello and Thanks for the reply I honestly appreciate it.
I sent ******* council this mail
*** I would like to take the time to thank you for the refund I have received for
the issue of an operators licence to operate and take work for private hire vehicles.
I did not receive a explanation to why / how this decision was made, I just simply received the fee I paid.
Please correct me if I am wrong but I take it that the licence was issued to me by mistake and
as a hackney carriage driver I did not need an operators licence.
Can you please confirm that I do not require any such licence been a hackney carriage driver
and working alone and not employing any private hire drivers to carry out work on my behalf.
Once again I thank you for your time and effort.
Regards
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And then recieved this mail back


Thanks for the e mail, it has only been brought to my attention that you have received the refund, as i had informed our admin staff that once the refund was processed they SHOULD NOT have beensent out without me including a covering letter as to why you have received the refund.

After further investigation by myself, and discussion with you, and other authorities, it was identified that a person who only has a hackney cariage proprietor/driver licence does not require a private hire operator licence.

Should your circumstances change and your operating procedures change in any way, please feel free to contact me to discuss anything you feel necessary. Once again i apologise for the misunderstanding and advice you were given on your original enquiry.

Yours sincerely

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then I sent this mail in return

Dear Mr *******,

Since receiving your email on the explanation of the reimbursement of the £**** I had paid for a Private Hire Operators licence, which you confirm was not required, regardless that I had questioned the legality of your advice and/or the advice of ******* Council's Legal Department.

Your acceptance of this point was refreshing, and although I do not intend you any malice personally I cannot allow myself to accept repayment of the fee as full and final settlement of this incident.

The fact that for many weeks I questioned your advice, and the fact that I was forced, by the Licensing Department, to wait for at least 4 weeks for my licence, constantly under the threat of prosecution should I accept a single booking under the trading name **** Taxis, leads me to believe that I should be financially compensated for my losses during the period in question.

I am aware that you wouldn't handle such a claim against the council, but this mail is to advise you of my intentions and to request contact details for *******, *******, ******* and *********

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I then recieved a recorded delivery
It went like this
Dear Mr ******ME
I write further to your email recieved on 19th Sept 2007
Before I am able to respond to your enquiry, I would be grateful if you could clarify the points below as soon as possible.

*I understand that you do not currently hold a hackney carriage proprietors licence with Tynedale council.
Please supply me with the date on which the Tynedale Council Hackney carriage licence plate attached to your vehicle, registration number ******* was surrendered.

Please confirm wheather or not you currently make provisions for bookings or operate from your residential premises, at the above address.

Please confirm if you currently advertise or operating under the name
****Taxis, If so supply details of the vehicles that are been used to fulfil any bookings.

________________________________________________________

I have added a few astrix in the mail to keep the councils id hidden for now incase I am breaking any laws by posting it.
If I am not I will post all details no problem.
The letter goes on in a bit more detail but the above is the request from Licencing Officer where my home is.

_________________________________________________________

I have not replied YET and I do not know if I should.
But I will by all means give the full details on here
IF I CAN NOT GET INTO BOTHER FOR DOING SO.

Thanks You are a goodun.
PS, I have had the computer cabs case ??????????????
Mentioned to me and some smart arse said the simple fact is I am not licenced and apparently this case shows that..
It was a member from a forum .
I have been adviced from a forum member that posts regular on here to join and post details of this case.
He said this will be the place to find the answers.
_________________________________________________

If I thought the Licencing Officer would not ask to many questions about things ( I believe he need not know or shouldnt be asking me ) as it has nowt to do with him.
I would phone him now and say I am a hac licenced and have no private hire cars working for me.
As a sole trader I do not need to tell you any more information.

Thats why I wanted a 100% answer as he will be onto his legal team at once.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
To explain the bit about Tynedale council ......
I used to be licenced there but now I am licenced somewhere else far closer to home....I handed the plate back in.

Regards Steve

So am I correct in summarising things as follows:

1 You are licenced as an HC in area A.

2 You live in Area B and want to accept bookings from there.

3 Area B's council said you needed an Op's licence and there was a delay in issuing this, but later they refunded the licence fee and later still told confirmed why you didn't need the licence.

4 You are now claiming for loss of earning during the delay.

5 Council B are now asking more questions about how you are operating?

If you are operating from home then it could be a planning issue that they're persuing?

As for compo, you could try the local government ombudsman (free), but you might have to provide proof of losses and since initially this would presumably be just the odd job to supplment your HC street work in Area A then it might not amount to much?

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

The computer cabs case was provided by me and if anyone has that case in their possession then it is more than likely by courtesy of TDO. The case relates to London and as far as I know the only person who openly gains succour from the case is Wayne Casey of the NTA otherwise known as Captain Cab on these forums.

It was me who highlighted the imperfections in that case and also in the case of Wilson v Hull in respect of the Gladen ruling, however, it is my opinion that the spectre of Wilson needs putting to bed once and for all and I have no doubt that sooner or later it will? In the meantime councils up and down the country have had no option but to accept the Gladen ruling and it is no wonder considering most of them take their advice from Jim button, who I understand acknowledges the Gladen implications.

Taxi Driver online was the first medium to dissect and discuss the Gladen ruling in fact it was done so within a matter of days of the ruling being published. TDO also spoke personally to Andy Gladen for his reaction to the ruling and I believe there is no one more qualified to interpret Gladen than those on TDO.

The ruling is probably one of the most momentous rulings for many in the Taxi trade who were under the wrong impression that a private hire operator’s license was needed to operate Hackney carriage vehicles. The ruling has without doubt provided innovation and flexibility in the way hackney carriage vehicles are operated.

I have been informed today that you previously posed this same question on another less distinguished forum and received an inadequate response? That does not surprise me in the least knowing the limitations of those who post on other forums.

All the information you require can be found on TDO including the case you mentioned, all you need do is search for it.

This subject has been thrashed out time and time again on TDO yet many still do not understand the separate legislation relating to Taxis and Private hire vehicles. If you drive a hackney carriage then the only person you need to be concerned about is your own Licensing officer.

If you want to know anything about the Taxi Trade then there is only one place on the Internet that is guaranteed to help you and that is TDO.

Regards

JD

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Copyright notice © The contents of this post are copyright of JD and are not to be reproduced outside of TDO without written permission.

If you do respond to the LO ask him all the questions, don't give him any answers.

Instead of saying I operate from here, ask him which section of which law prohibits you from operating from anywhere?

Councils are only allowed to enforce the law as it is, not how they would like it to be.

In short you can do what you dam well like all the time there isn't a law saying you can't. Council however can only do what the law says they can.

If your LO and his licensing colleagues don't like the law as it is, then they best take it out on the government, not on drivers.

_________________
IDFIMH

Sound advice.

Regards

JD

_________________
Copyright notice © The contents of this post are copyright of JD and are not to be reproduced outside of TDO without written permission.

Yep you have it right.
Thanks to all for the advice ....I am really pleased I came here.
A real good set of lads...

Unfortinatly I should of waited until I read sussex post before I replied.
I will give you a look at what I just sent him.

Hello ****.
In response to your registered letter dated 20th Sept 2007.
You asked me to answer the 3 points you set out in the letter.

1, I understand that you do not currently hold a hackney carriage proprietors licence with Tynedale council.
Please supply me with the date on which the Tynedale Council Hackney carriage licence plate attached to your vehicle,
registration number ****** was surrendered.

2, Please confirm whether or not you currently make provisions for bookings or operate from your residential premises, at the above address.

3, Please confirm if you currently advertise or operating under the name
**** Taxis, If so supply details of the vehicles that are been used to fulfil any bookings.

I must state myself or any agent working on my behalf do not operate private hire vehicles for the purpose of private hire under the
terms of the 1976 Local Government miscellaneous provisions act.
I will Inform you that I surrendered my Tynedale plate sometime in July ?
I am still in the same situation ( a person who only has a hackney carriage proprietor/driver licence ).
I have however changed my car.
I am licensed with another council now and I still call myself **** Taxis, I take bookings via my mobile phone number
and the calls no longer are diverted from a land line number in ***** they come directly to myself.
I only use the one hackney carriage as my office and NO OTHER cars work with me or for me.

Can I ask why you needed to know answers to the above questions ?
You have already stated I do not require a private hire operator licence.

The paragraph you wrote "At no point did anyone within the Licensing section threaten you with prosecution should you accept a single booking whilst trading under the name **** Taxis"
My reply to this is that I may of used the incorrect terminology to describe what was said to me.
I was told I could NOT accept advance bookings until the licence came through.
I was not aware that the council has no statutory time limit on how long an authority must take on processing and granting a licence.

If my situation ever changed and I did need to involve Private hire vehicles ( Which I assure you I will not )
I would then contact you and inform you of the situation at once.

I thank you for your time in writing the letter and for your in-depth research into the matter regarding the issue of an operator licence
I would also like to apologise for the time it has taken to reply, I have only just got over the death of my mother who died last month and now I am dealing with
my wife's situation after having major surgery she is quite poorly.

Regards Steve *******

___________________________________________________________

Sorry lads I was a bit hastey so I sent that off earlier today.
At least now I should get the other contact info I requested for his superiors.

Regards Steve

PS:::::Have I done wrong

I just need to say thats about the best thing I have read for a while.
I will admit I was told you know your stuff and you speak how it is.
I just love the bit you wrote...
"In short you can do what you dam well like all the time there isn't a law saying you can't. Council however can only do what the law says they can."...thats a mint saying.....

Steve

Can I ask this please.

If I post all correspondence as I get it and send it to and from the LO
on here.....will I get my arse kicked or is it ok to do this.
I mean from a legal point of view

Just I would like to allow people to see how this goes.
And also how I get dealt with.

Steve

Excellent answer. I will keep this one in mind for when a certain other subject is brought up again.

_________________
Grandad,

I am licensed with another council now and I still call myself **** Taxis, I take bookings via my mobile phone number

_________________
Justice for the 96. It has only taken 27 years...........repeat the same lies for 27 years and the truth sounds strange to people!

Is there anything in the correspondence which asks or instructs you not to divulge the contents?

_________________

http://wingsoverscotland.com/ http://www.newsnetscotland.com/

Under normal circumstances if you published written personal correspondence without the other parties consent then you would be in breach of the Data Protection act. Considering you are dealing with an administrative body then they are not covered by the act. However considering the data protection act is in place to protect individuals it might be wise to edit out any information of a personal nature, the other alternative is to advise the administrative body you are dealing with that any or all correspondence recieved from them may be subject to public scrutiny.

Regards

JD

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Copyright notice © The contents of this post are copyright of JD and are not to be reproduced outside of TDO without written permission.