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Thanks to the members of Unite for sending these minutes in. 
Alex
Meeting – ref Department for Transport Taxi Accessibility consultation
NPHA office - 8 Silver Street, Bury – 11 March 2009 – chaired by Paul Brent, NTA
Present: Paul Brent – Chair, NTA
Wayne Casey - NTA
Pat Connor - GMB/NTTG Manchester
Derek Cummins – Taxi Talk
Alan Fidler – Independent consultant
Terry Flanagan -GMB
Glenn Hall – Cambridge Licensed Taxi Owners’ Association
Mike Hedges – Unite
Mick Hildreth - GMB Brighton
Trevor Jones – Chair, Meeting of Minds
Tommy McIntyre – Unite
Eric Payne - Unite
Bryan Roland – Gen. Secretary, NPHA
Donna Short – Co. Secretary, NPHA
George Simms – Manchester TODA/NTTG
Karl Stamper – Cambridge Licensed Taxi Owners’ Association
John Thompson – Sefton MBC/NALEO
George Walker – NPHA London
David Hughes (Wheelchair Charlie 39) - disabled rights campaigner
Wendy Harbon – disabled rights campaigner
Meeting started 10.45am. Paul Brent set out what was to be discussed, and by whom: Bryan Roland to give history of DDA, John Thompson to give licensing officers’ input; Paul to give NTA input and meeting with Paul Lawry last week.
Bryan gave brief history of DDA and disability stuff... since 1993. First – in 1985 the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee was formed under the Transport Act 1985 – the subcommittee known as the Taxi Working Group formed 1993. 50% of all committees have to be disabled persons; they have always been in the majority in these committees.
Bryan Roland, Brian Heptinstall, Doug Holliday, Ron Pearson, LTI, Metrocab were all on original Committee. We were able to discuss the scenario about what should happen ref the law?
Original consultation about accessibility started then.. . the Taxi Working Group was informed that a document would be prepared for their consideration as the DDA was in Bill form. By September 1995 a copy of the Bill was distributed to the Taxi Working Group with Part 5 already in it; no consultation whatsoever was undertaken with the industry by the time it was made into law.
Govt had to do cost compliance exercise (Philip Oxley, Cranfield University); this was done in 1998 – it sat on John Prescott’s desk for four years. We disclosed the cost compliance paper in 2004 under Freedom of Info Act (published it in PHTM) – total accessibility not affordable or sustainable. At the same time some sort of consultation was supposed to be going on in 1997... this 2009 consultation should have taken place back then.
Because the report to the Govt said it couldn’t be afforded, the then Minister put on website saying Mr Oxley’s investigation was out of date, therefore there would have to be a further consultation prior to Part 5 being brought in. The economic footprint of the trade had actually gone down over that period; therefore it was common knowledge the DfT didn’t want to do another cost compliance exercise – it would arrive at the exact same conclusion. We waited until the Minister came out with phased- in schemes 2003; that was not passed by Parliament – it never happened.
Govt know they can’t move forward with this [current consultation as it stands] – what are they going to do ? The OFT report came out 2003; then the Govt response in 2004, further recommendations that councils should deregulate in favour of wheelchair accessible vehicles. Philosophy: the Govt can’t do it, the councils can do it – they won’t have to be responsible for cost compliance exercises.
Meanwhile DPTAC by 2003 had no trade members, no union members, no manufacturers, only Doug Holliday as observer. Now the Taxi Working Group is 100% wheelchair accessible/disabled, making views on what we should do. In the background, unknown to all, the Govt starts requiring going into feasibility exercises (ie the 120-page document issued in 2006 about wheelchair accessibility ramps, seats etc) – Not many have seen this... the dimensions in that doc bear no relation to the 2009 consultation.
Then in March 2007: EU Ministers get involved, Bryan showed that report. “Improving access to taxis” – the document came out with a reasonably clear view that mixed fleets are the way to go. Gives measurements and ramp angles which bear no relation to today’s consultation. This should have happened 15 years ago – after this meeting, we’ll only have six weeks left to consult.
Bryan: Has everybody had chance to go through the DfT consultation? Some have not seen it... Object of today’s meeting is to get which direction we’re going to go... if we’re all going in the same direction, that would be fantastic. Would like to identify the most important points; most important disasters in the document, hopefully to save a lot of the trade. This is seriously dangerous.
Mick observed: no agenda? This meeting is not the next Meeting of Minds; it is an extraordinary meeting, only concerning the taxi accessibility consultation – there was no written material sent out. Some discussion about this...
Pat Connor: when you go to some homes for the disabled, there is often no facility whatsoever for loading wheelchair in the cab. Ground level – major problem.
Bryan: we’ll list the points/bad bits of document. What can we do to ensure this doesn’t come in in its current form? What are the points that have to be fixed before the trade can consider going down this route? They’re passing the buck back to councils again, so Govt doesn’t have to do it.
Tommy: we can’t do justice to this task in the time alloted – we shouldn’t have to respond in six weeks – this took years, why do we have to respond in three months? Must be item one!!!
General agreement to go for extension of consultation period... “We’ll take late submissions” – Paul Lawry of Dft said this at a meeting with Paul Brent, but Paul Brent said that’s not good enough... Paul Lawry said write in after this meeting. Bryan: it’s not possible to consult all affiliated association groups in this short time... Paul Lawry said he would “take the material upstairs”? Today’s full meeting is in favour of extending the period; someone mentioned 1st August 2009 – or should we go for four months extra minimum (Eric).
The DfT “road show” meetings consist of three: London, Bristol and Edinburgh. Nothing else. Should we ask for a formal meeting with the Government to say “This isn’t good enough” - ? That would have more strength than letters alone...
Paul Brent: Paul Lawry said he’d be happy to come and meet us. His background is non-taxi – he’s ex-VOSA. Eric: we’ve got to attack this the way we would attack a local government measure, negotiation with the Government, lobby every last MP and every Lord, really make it out that the DfT doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Licensing Committees are supposed to be non-political; why should it be different with MPs? Proper time to do a proper job.
John Thompson: I’ve spent five days on this so far for Sefton’s response; also for NALEO’s response. Naleo is demanding an extension – “we do not know this, we do not know that” etc. from the DfT. Sefton as an area is spread across three townships; currently mixed fleet, long list of ambulant disabled cannot/do not want to use WAVs. What if a driver himself has disability? If voluntary WAV then fine; they’re not considering any of that. TALK TALK TALK to all groups!!!
Alan Fidler: we should contact every chief exec in ever y local authority in the country. With the threat of all WAVs, they’ve drafted their policies accordingly. Stockton considered their all-WAV policy with no evidence. Went into Stockton background...
Bryan reflected national position: 58 out of 348 England/Wales Local authorities (16%) have total WAV policy. Vast majority are not...
Tommy: At the London meeting last week they trashed the earlier document, but they were giving it away that day... The whole DDA was written without asking anybody... What are the excuses? DfT said at the meeting: this [current consultation] isn’t a rule; it is a question!!! Paul Clarke (Minister) was quite embarrassed about the questioning at this meeting.
Karl Stamper: good grounds for extension; have they got a good reason to refuse? Govt policy...
Terry F: everybody wants period extended; organise a group to lobby Govt on this; that this group writes to Ministers responsible, start immediate campaign on it (Unite and GMB suggested) plus disabled group. Need to get group together from within ourselves... to discuss issues here is a “waste of time”.
Bryan pointed out that the defects in the consultation document are grounds for asking for the extension... Terry suggested that four or five people can do this, not the whole group.
George Walker: politicians don’t know the difference between disabled transport and wheelchair accessible vehicles - in London 6% of the population is disabled; only 0.001% are wheelchair bound. Most companies can accommodate disabled people in wheelchairs. Most wheelchair bound do not want to travel in their wheelchairs; they want to be like “normal” people.
Bryan: how long do we need? Tommy: DfT was saying they’d come out with all answers by “late summer”... Eric agreed with 12 months minimum. Paul Lawry said ”you’ve known this document was coming out...” Small percentage – taxi fleet cannot be 100% wheelchair accessible.
Pat Connor: Have we got a disabled Minister now? Paul Clarke is Transport; there should be a Minister in charge of disabled. Brighton man: 12 months from now voted. Alan F: 31st January 2010. Mick Hildreth proposed that Bryan Roland, John Thompson and Paul Brent prepare the extension document.
Bryan stressed the importance of going through doc to find out today – people have come from all over the country for this. How many target points do we need in this extension report? Alan F: just pull out half a dozen ridiculous statements from the consultation – a lot of this is aimed at softening the principle of going 100% WAV. Which idiot at the DfT said taxi drivers would recover VAT on fuel?
Wayne: agreed with Terry – we should go for the extension first, then go over the document. Tommy: we still have to submit a response, in addition to the extension request...
John Thompson raised the point that new DPTAC Taxi Working Group appointments in by 13 March – no interest herein. Even though now they get expenses.
George Simms: They’re still confusing wheelchair access with disabled access. So few wheelchair passengers require access... Bryan – they have all forgotten section 32 DDA about ambulant disabled.
Mick: At the Imperial War Museum last week the Govt made it clear they were going to push on this, they were getting pressure from Lords, the Baroness etc. Everyone wanted this done yesterday... Govt made it clear they don’t want to hang around. If we did get extension it would be very short.. we have to be prepared for the deadline. If not, we’ll be in trouble.
Bryan recounted Amber Valley experience. They did a survey involving Christine Beuret of DeMontfort University. Survey said no way 100% WAV would be necessary; Amber Valley changed their conditions accordingly.
[John Thompson looked this up on his laptop: MP Jonathan Shaw is the Disability Minister.]
Alan F: we’ve got to trash the whole document.
Trevor: agreed with the extension request. Govt will probably ignore it, because they can... Everyone knows the pitfalls of this doc; it would be better that you went back with an answer/solution, rather than just trashing the document. This is an individual area problem, rather than generic government one. How can you implement it into local policy?
Bryan: are we likely to go forward without giving reasons? This is a matter of emergency... more discussion necessary about initial document being prepared.
Terry: proposed that we need to substantiate why an extension is needed. 20 bullet points amongst all of us. Then a smaller group, one delegate from each group, put them in a room, draw up a document, go to the Minister. Application for extension needs to go in immediately (Bryan). We will put together best justification for that by Monday... they’d take another few weeks to come back with rationale, it’s the same as a consultation.
Trevor: there’s a thousand reasons to delay [the end of the consultation]; it’s whether or not they accept. Paul Lawry is on record as saying he’ll talk to anybody. Why don’t we get him together with this Committee?
Eric: There has to be a reason for doing it. George has said it: it has to be specific. This document says “wheelchair accessible taxis”. No mention of vehicles for the ambulant disabled. This [consultation] is a lot of muddled thinking; it is not cohesive, not serving the interests of disabled passengers. Access into saloons is a lot easier.
Terry: debating is useless; we’ve got ‘em. Delegates from each group must meet with the Minister. We’ll go and see what we can do.
Tommy: Mike and I have gone down this line. Nobody’s made a decision. What does this group think of Paul Lawry coming in front of all of us? Sooner than the next meeting of MOM (scheduled for April 7th); it should be next week.
Trevor: does Tommy think this is a “bluster and go away” Job? No way – some way or other something is going to come in... Next step: consultation over by spring; this is another way to try to deregulate our trade. Last time this happened was when Rupert Cope was going; now David Farmer’s going.
Derek: Answer in DDA says you must make reasonable provisions. They’re going against their own Act.
Wheelchair Charlie (David Hughes) and partner Wendy Harbon arrived;
Terry: said get Lawry ASAP – Bryan asked: target the minister as well? Terry said yes...
David Hughes (Wheelchair Charlie) and Wendy Harbon, [he introduced them both] – we’ve been travelling in the last week all around the West Midlands, London, Midlands, into North East. NOT ONE taxi driver or one disability group knows about this consultation AT ALL. North Yorks County Council: not one of 70 councillors know about or have seen the document.
David: Conservatives their have spring conference after May elections; nobody knows about this consultation whatsoever. MPs, members of Lords, nobody knows about this or understands the consequences. They’re all now starting to ask questions; they’re agreeing 12 weeks is not enough. Please email Paul Clarke direct, asking for extension.
Bryan: in our experience of going into Court, disabled groups are incredibly supportive about what’s needed; nobody has been talking to them. These two folks [David Hughes and Wendy Harbon] have in the past six weeks legged more around the country than any two people in the whole time. They do get about, everywhere.
Wheelchair Charlie (David): we’re currently doing a disability survey. Everywhere I go I target taxi drivers. Not one taxi driver has anything good to say about the Govt or local authorities. Now they’re going to hit back. Every single local authority is committing discrimination against the disabled. Under the DDA all taxi ranks should be disabled accessible: ie. safe to load and unload wheelchair passengers. Councils are breaching the DDA because they’re not doing this. They’re doing it for bus stops, but not taxi ranks.
I’m partially sighted: in our travels I have discovered that tariff cards, driver badges etc should be tactile so passengers should be able to read them. This does not exist anywhere. This is a failure of licensing departments to do this for you. They are using disability law to punish the taxi trade. Picking and choosing – you can hit them back twice as hard as they are hitting you. It adds up to some £9,000 worth discrimination per taxi. If you want info I can supply it.
Eric: question asked here: what stats are there for disabled? Wheelchair Charlie: Less than 5% are wheelchair users; less than 2 ½ million in the country. No stats available direct from Govt. We’ve been all around the country.
Trevor: Is there any reason for the proposed new TX type taxi to be eight inches taller than it is now? Charlie: they are coming up with dimensions now that are based on previous users who had 10-15 yr old wheelchairs. My wheelchair cannot fit in to any of your cabs. It is based on 1970s wheelchair , manual. Incidentally, the Govt doesn’t account for electric wheelchairs. If the Govt succeeds with [dumping this on] the taxi trade, every other form of transport will be clobbered then – ambulance, trains, the lot. There are European vehicles already around that would be perfectly suitable; why is the British govt going to outlaw European manufactured vehicles? We’re trying to email every MP, every MEP, Scottish, Welsh, Northern Ireland Assembly – when disabled groups find out about the consultation, they will go mad.
Wheelchair Charlie: For example, in Preston Council the licensing officer is not letting Cllrs see, hasn’t got time to circulate it round 108 councillors to see it and comment. Not even discussing with disabled or anyone. One single officer is going to comment on this. Taxi licensing officers are going to make the decision for their councils through lack of circulation.
Alan: raised Stockton experience. Why do Middlesbrough have so many more WAVS than Stockton? No answer... Some councils will interpret the law differently.
Charlie: A council or transport provider cannot charge a disabled person or agent for providing a facility they have a legal obligation to provide. Bryan: they can’t charge the public. John Thompson: the legislation is clear: a council can recover whole cost. It cannot profit. The point of these meetings is to break down barriers over these issues. You will get officers who are bad, some who are good... Idea is to move everything forward that we do this to them before they do it to us.
Charlie: Harrogate is happy with status quo? We actually talked with drivers; not one is happy about the state of things. 20 cabs trying to get into the station. Not enough room to pick up disabled passengers.
Pat Connor: Manchester was the first wheelchair [friendly] city in the world. I’m involved in finding out why disabled homes, which get a lot of money, have no facilities at the other end to be able to get passengers out to our cabs.
Charlie: Taxi rank is on level ground; no kerb. NW Ambulance going up the wall; now they’re redesigning car parks to accommodate. NHS, charities, even Tesco, don’t understand the requirements of the disabled passengers. This is being used as an excuse NOT to provide such facilities.
The Disability Rights Commission have not delivered once -disability was down the bottom of the list.
Pat: there are no facilities at Old Trafford for disabled... trains don’t take them, we’ve got to take them.
Charlie: ref disabled buses – they made the classic mistake. Half of the responsibility fell upon local authorities to put raised stops in. If they designed buses to deploy wheelchair from any level of service and gave funds to bus companies, they wouldn’t have any problems. We’ve argued they should do the same for taxis; the Govt should give a grant towards DDA provision towards helping buy WAVS, putting level playing field.
Terry: immense power within this room. We need to decide formula, get it down on paper. Get sub-group up, get Lawry up here. We need to get before the people who make the decisions.
Bryan: First thing to get letter out demanding extension? Total agreement by vote. John and Bryan to get draft documents out to group by this Friday 13 March.
Tommy: can we contact Paul Lawry during lunchtime today, to see if he can meet with us? [this was done by Bryan]
Derek: joint signatories? John T: are you all comfortable with one common letter? Emailed copy circulating immediately... break for lunch here. During break, Bryan spoke to Paul Lawry at DfT, who replied in an email that at the 3 March event the suggestion of an extension came up, and “the Minister is not keen. It was widely known that the consultation was due and the consultation meets the statutory requirements in terms of time.”
[Also during the break, discussion took place between Wheelchair Charlie and John Thompson, where Charlie stated that all councils are in breach of their DED (Disability Equality Duty) commitments by virtue of not circulating the DfT consultation document amongst their own licence holders, disabled groups and individuals, and the public generally – and discussing the implications of its contents.]
After lunch: Bryan said about the email from Paul Lawry; we’ll work on the letter for the Transport Minister ref extension, despite the fact that he’s ‘not keen’ on it. From 2003 there has not been one single letter from the Disability Unit about what was going on about DDA. Paul Lawry mentioned 23, 25 or 26 March. Otherwise 21, 22 April. Mick: go for 25 March in London.
Wheelchair Charlie suggested inviting Minister(s) if we go to London.
George: i f London, or House of Commons, MPs usually can find 45 minutes to attend. Everybody up for 25 March meeting in London?
Terry: who are we meeting? Paul Lawry, Bryan will say we’d like to meet with the minister as well. Terry: in my opinion you’ll get the civil servant; you’ll not get the Minister. GMB are not interested in meeting the civil servant. Terry: prelude to meeting the Minister. We need to aim at using this guy to get to the Minister. Mention ‘power of the two unions involved’. You’re not going to get a meeting with 16 people; use reps from each group.
Bryan: we’ll write the extension letter, asking for any chance of moving this forward, are you (Paul Lawry) prepared to meet with us.
Mick: The point about meeting with Paul Lawry is to hear what he’s got to say. At the same time the unions would lobby the Minister. Alan: he’s obviously not the author of this document... Bryan: he reckons he wrote it. Mick: you’ll be meeting with all of them (from DfT and Disability access side). AGMs of NTA and NALEO aren’t until October 09 – George Simms: we need to raise the profile of this group.
Derek: any idea where the Institute of Licensing stands on this? Button was at London meeting; doesn’t see why taxis should be the only mode of transport that ISN’T wheelchair accessible.
Bryan: We’re going to write this letter; copy out by Friday 13 March. Email address list going round the room... Paul Lawry knows this letter will be with him by Monday. He knows we’ll be asking to meet with him on 25 March. Representative group?
Tommy: thought Lawry was coming here to this Committee. Bring him down here under our rules. In favour of bringing Paul Lawry to this group, to meet with us all. This will be communicated to Paul Lawry.
Terry: is he guaranteed to come? Tommy suggested we hold that March meeting in Liverpool. Wheelchair Charlie could contact several disabled representatives... OK on that. Liverpool venue is disabled friendly... T&G offices mooted.
Terry: do you want to meet the Minister or not? Bryan: which one – Clarke or the disabled guy? Both. [Terry Flanagan had to leave then... also Mick Hildreth.]
Wheelchair Charlie suggested contacting Lord Ashley, chair of Disability Committee.
Eric: we’ve got to lobby every MP and Lord. Bryan: ...and get a response from Minister. Then if he says Yes to extend, then OK; if not, he’d dig his heels in and refuse. This has got to be a very powerful letter. If he says no, then get hobnail boots on all around the Commons etc.
John Thompson: The venue for this meeting is immaterial; if they say London, then so be it. Preferably out of his home territory... Liverpool is best, 25th March. Exchange of emails between Bryan and John; finalise document by Thursday 12; send to whole group by Friday 13 March. Any comments that day; final document will be with Paul Lawry on Monday 16th. We should ask them to acknowledge receipt. In view of timescale, early reply urgently requested.
Address for 25th March meeting: 137 Sefton Street, Jack Jones House, Liverpool.
Wheelchair Charlie volunteered one of several disabled group headquarters for potential Ministerial meeting in London.
Tommy: can we ask that more trade members be included back on the DPTAC taxi working group? That’s the whole idea... if we had been talking with them for the last 15 years, we’d have got so much more achieved. (Bryan).
Trevor: Exactly what can we expect to get out of these meetings?
Bryan: ...rather, what we can input to these meetings. [Eric said any emails to be circulated, send his to Tommy Mac.] Tommy: if you bring them into our group and they see how all of us are united about this, this will have to have an impact.
Bryan: we are sending this letter to the Minister as well as to Lawry. If the disabled groups don’t like it; enforcers don’t like it; the taxi trade doesn’t like it. Just who will benefit from this? What will be the outcome?
John: backed what Wheelchair Charlie said about councils breaching the DDA by the DfT’s actions; as for what we would like to see following an extension: a working group funded by DfT with members from all groups to steer policy decisions. “Evidence bears out”.... that term is used in the consultation; there isn’t any evidence.
Charlie: nowhere in the report is “disabled accessibility” defined...
Eric: if we don’t get anywhere, then we lobby all the MPs etc. John: The politicians all want to get re-elected; if 22 different groups write in and say they don’t want it, this may have an impact.
George: examine the terms of Lawry’s email – this is a lie, a bluff. That’s what we have got to put before him. And the users.
Pat: where will this go: legislation or RRO? Bryan: they cannot bring in Part 5 without another cost compliance exercise. It’s still going to fail, fail. This consultation is designed to circumvent that – to persuade local authorities to move their own goal posts. The [national] cost compliance would fail dramatically. Govt is aware of this; so this is a scheme to fiddle, get round the outside and bring it in. No orders, can’t bring it through the House. What you end up with is a Best Practice Guidance, and we spend the rest of our lives appealing it.
Charlie (David) described the dereg nightmare where he has been. The council doesn’t care if there are 20 or 30 taxis waiting for one fare at the station. The joke is that if the Govt is going this way, those councils are going to lose revenue overnight... [by virtue of all taxi trade finishing or changing to private hire].
Bryan quoted example of South Derbyshire, not one taxi, over 400 PHV... being swamped by applications from Birmingham. Thus bringing in DSA, local knowledge etc etc. Worst possible time this document could ever have been produced. When the DDA first came out, most of the councils were still regulated; now it is very much not the case. Only 45-odd councils are still regulated... numbers are swamped everywhere.
Derek: Ministers quote latent demand, this is invalid... also anecdotal evidence. John: they don’t even produce anecdotal evidence.
Meeting closed 1.32pm_________________ ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
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