Taxi Driver Online

UK cab trade debate and advice
It is currently Fri Oct 25, 2024 10:21 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 125 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 6:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 55018
Location: 1066 Country
Steven Toy wrote:
If you read my article in the July issue of PHTM, I explain why a national licence is both unfeasible and unnecessary.

It's a long article...

Pretty sure that's what this new government is looking at.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 6:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37321
Location: Wayneistan
Quote:
In my view, if a remotely-licensed Uber is visibly available on the app, an offence is committed contrary to section 75


I'm sure the trade in London argued that and lost.

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 9:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 8:57 pm
Posts: 123
Location: Cannock Chase
Sussex wrote:
Quote:
Mr Button regards 75 (1) (a) as an irrelevance. I disagree, and section 11 of the Deregulation Act 2015 does not change that. Whilst an operator may subcontract a booking to another in another district, this does not give the second operator the legal.right to have their vehicles waiting in the district of the first operator to.accept subcontracted bookings.

You may have an arguable point, but there is no way this will ever reach a court.

Even if it did, I believe there is no way a court would agree, and even if the court did, and following numerous appeals it became law I'm 100% certain the government would change the law.


We have recently had a change of government, although I'm sure that Uber's well-oiled marketing machine has already been set in motion. However, their issue of modern slavery is going to be difficult for them to explain away.

_________________
Steve.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2024 9:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:39 pm
Posts: 1567
National conditions for private hire licences

Let’s have a look at what there thinking, I have not had time to proof this captain normally corrects it for me, so now he’s back I will let him check it.

There is a universal desire for national standards for private hire licences.1 This is not only felt by local authorities, but also by the trade and by safety groups. While universal standards have been promised by the Government as one of the three suggestions from the Task and Finish Group2 which the Government agreed to,3 it has been stated that the remaining two changes4 will not be introduced until after the next general election.5 Obviously the outcome of that election remains to be seen, but whatever it may be, it seems unrealistic to assume that these vital matters will be high on any government’s agenda.

That leaves an unsatisfactory lacuna, where private hire vehicles (PHV) and private hire drivers (PHD) licensed anywhere in England or Wales can undertake pre-booked journeys in areas where they are not licensed.6 Often, though not always, the local authority that issued these licences had lower standards, to some extent, than the local authority in where the activity in question takes place.

This has numerous serious and harmful implications: it reduces the ability of local authorities in which such vehicles and drivers are working to protect users of private hire vehicles; it reduces the revenue available to those authorities to enforce against unlawful activity; it increases the difficulty for the licensing authority to ensure compliance by its
licensees: and overall, it undermines both public safety and public confidence in the private hire trade.

However, all is not lost. I suggest that a solution is available, and that it is possible for local authorities to not only address, but solve this situation by their own combined actions

Itis wellknown that one local authority licences a significant number of PHVs, PHDs and private hire operators (PHOs).
According to the Department for Transport (DfT) statistics for 2023, some 15% of PHVs licensed outside London were licensed by one particular local authority.


The reasons for this are irrelevant for the purposes of this article. Suffice to say that one particular local authority has an efficient and effective licensing system for private hire licences? It has good standards for drivers, vehicles and operators. Whie these are not necessarily the highest set by local authorities, they are a long way from the lowest.

PHVs and PHDs licensed by that local authority are working in many parts of England and Wales, with PHOs licensed by that authority either taking bookings directly, or undertaking bookings that have been sub-contracted to them by "local" operators. At present this causes, at best, resentment amongst "local" licensees and their local authority, and at worst, public safety issues because passengers report issues to the "local" authority, not realising that they are not responsible for licensing that particular vehicle or driver.

All this can be overcome by allowing one particular local authority to become the national licensing authority for England and Wales. This could be agreed by all other licensing authorities in England and Wales. For this article, that particular local authority is referred to as the "principal authority".

This radical proposal is readily achievable using the current legislation.

As already stated, the law allows a PHO to advertise its services anywhere, accept a booking from a passenger located anywhere, and fulfil that booking provided the PHD and PHV are also licensed by the same authority that licences the PHO - the trinity of private hire licences.

If the only local authority that issued private hire licences was the principal authority, there is an immediate and automatic private hire industry controlled by the same (effectively national) standards.
Obviously, this would require significant co-operation between every local authority, but that could be co-ordinated by the Local Government Association (LGA). It would require local authorities to relinquish their control over PH licensees, but as will be seen, that would be outweighed by national safety standards and the removal of a local authority's requirements being undermined by other PHDs and PHVs.
It would also require the principal authority to accept this responsibility and expand its licensing operation accordingly.

How is this possible within the current legislation?
While the ability of a local authority to licence PHDs and PHOs is mandatory, the power to licence PHVs is discretionary.
Therefore, every local authority (bar the principal authority) could refuse to licence PHVs. As a PHO can only use vehicles and drivers licensed by the same authority that licensed the PHO, only a PHO licensed by the principal authority could fulfil a booking. Local PHOs could accept bookings, but would have to sub-contract them to a PHO licensed by the principal authority. to It would remain to be seen whether there was a demand for locally licensed PHOs or whether the operators would move wholesale to be licensed by the principal authority.

Enforcement in relation to those drivers and operators licensed by the principal authority could be undertaken in every local authority if the "local" local authority placed its officers at the disposal of the principal authority," and they were then made authorised officers by that authority. 2 This mechanism is already used by a number of local authorities and is recommended by the DfT in the recent Taxi and private hire vehicle licensing best practice guidance for licensing authorities in England.

There are a number of local authorities which already allow vehicle tests to be undertaken at locations outside their local authority boundary, so the principal authority could utilise that approach across both England and Wales.

This approach would significantly reduce, or completely remove, PH licence income for all the other authorities. This could be offset in relation to enforcement against principal authority PH licensees by such costs being recharged to the principal authority. Those costs would be recoverable by the principal authority via its licence fees.! This would also remove another frequent concern expressed by local authorities about their funding of action against licensees from other areas.

This is not a perfect solution, as it does not address hackney carriage drivers (HCD) or vehicles (HCV). They would still be licensed by individual local authorities to stand or ply for hire within their respective local authority area (or hackney carriage zone in some local authorities) for predominantly local activity, but those HCVs could still undertake pre-booked journeys anywhere - ie, outside their licensed area.
However, this is thought to be a small part of the current remote cross-border hiring activity.

It is suggested that in relation to private hire licensing, this could work, and provide a solution to an enormous problem.
It would be for the principal authority to determine the standards for its licensees, and the conditions which were then imposed. It is suggested that good, high standards already exist and could readily be used by the principal authority, if they are not already in place. Whether those would be acceptable to all the other local authorities who would be asked to relinquish control would remain to be seen. There is no reason why agreement could not be reached. That would be likely to involve some compromises: the highest possible standards might not be achieved, but this approach would undoubtedly raise the standards applied by many local authorities.

There are practical difficulties involved here.
There needs to be a concerted desire by local authorities for this to happen. Those authorities would need to agree this is a more desirable situation than the current one; they would need to be able to agree the common standards applied by the principal authority; they would need to accept their control would be reduced, but this would be accompanied by the acceptance of a satisfactory common standard being applied. Experience indicates this would not be easy, but is surely not beyond the wit of those involved. If there is enough will and determination, this approach could be achieved.

There would remain the issue of PH activity within Greater London. TFL might chose to become involved. but might not, in a way, this might not be an immediate issue as London has it’s legislation, and is to an extent a distinct PH licensing area, but I would suggest that a truly cohesive system across England, Wales and Greater London would be preferable.

Would it be acceptable to the public? There is no reason why not. Generally speaking, passengers do not expressly demand a PHV and PHD licensed by a specific local authority when making a booking: they will usually accept any vehicle dispatched by a PHO to fulfil their booking. A realisation that in many cases, safety standards would be enhanced should remove any concerns expressed by the public, although in some cases there may be reductions.

Ultimately, it is a question of will.

Are the problems and concerns that exist in relation to cross-border private hire activity sufficient to lead to a consensus by local authorities and the inevitable compromises that would require?

If so, then local government could take the lead on this important issue, wresting control from a central government which demonstrably does not regard it as a vital matter.

If not, then it may be the case that local authorities only have themselves to blame for the continuation of a system which ultimately puts public safety at risk.

James Button
Principal, James Button & Co Solicitors


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2024 5:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37321
Location: Wayneistan
Quote:
I have not had time to proof this captain normally corrects it for me, so now he’s back I will let him check it.


I see little to disagree with to be honest :wink:

Something needs to happen, and if Mr Button wants to start the conversation, then I applaud him, solutions are needed =D>

PSV's operate on a national basis and nobody blinks an eye about them, why not PH?

I know it goes against localism, but look what we've currently got, its a mess.

Every bit of best practice seems to want to put a sticking plaster over a head wound, and nobody wants to look at the situation on a practical basis.

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2024 7:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 55018
Location: 1066 Country
Quote:
There is a universal desire for national standards for private hire licences.

Really not sure it's a universal desire. :-k

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2024 7:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 55018
Location: 1066 Country
Quote:
All this can be overcome by allowing one particular local authority to become the national licensing authority for England and Wales. This could be agreed by all other licensing authorities in England and Wales. For this article, that particular local authority is referred to as the "principal authority".

Interesting to see that the Institue of Licensing is proposing/promoting a policy that would see 100s of its members lose their jobs.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2024 7:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 55018
Location: 1066 Country
Quote:
This is not a perfect solution, as it does not address hackney carriage drivers (HCD) or vehicles (HCV). They would still be licensed by individual local authorities to stand or ply for hire within their respective local authority area (or hackney carriage zone in some local authorities) for predominantly local activity, but those HCVs could still undertake pre-booked journeys anywhere - ie, outside their licensed area.

Indeed.

You will have a national lot of officials regulating/administrating PH but still require local officials to regulate/administer HC.

However, in many areas they will not be able to enforce anything due to having no money in the pot to do so.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2024 7:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 55018
Location: 1066 Country
Quote:
Ultimately, it is a question of will.

As is always the case.

If the government chooses to act they will not go down the national PH route, but may go down the national PH standards route.

Addressing cross-border can be done by adding a 'predominantly' requirement, which would allow vehicles to still work elsewhere from time to time, just not all the bloody time.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2024 9:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37321
Location: Wayneistan
Sussex wrote:
Interesting to see that the Institue of Licensing is proposing/promoting a policy that would see 100s of its members lose their jobs.


I don't think he is, he specifically disassociated himself with the views of the IOL, I think he's trying to make people think :shock:

they'll lose their jobs anyway when we all have unitary authorities :lol:

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2024 9:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37321
Location: Wayneistan
Sussex wrote:
Quote:
Ultimately, it is a question of will.

As is always the case.

If the government chooses to act they will not go down the national PH route, but may go down the national PH standards route.

Addressing cross-border can be done by adding a 'predominantly' requirement, which would allow vehicles to still work elsewhere from time to time, just not all the bloody time.


They'll go down the route of amalgamating local authorities and de-zoning areas, then the entire thing will resolve itself

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2024 1:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 8:57 pm
Posts: 123
Location: Cannock Chase
Edited message to follow.

_________________
Steve.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2024 1:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 8:57 pm
Posts: 123
Location: Cannock Chase
captain cab wrote:
Sussex wrote:
Interesting to see that the Institue of Licensing is proposing/promoting a policy that would see 100s of its members lose their jobs.


I don't think he is, he specifically disassociated himself with the views of the IOL, I think he's trying to make people think :shock:

they'll lose their jobs anyway when we all have unitary authorities :lol:


I was at the IoL conference in Leicester in January when Button first proposed his Principal Licensing Authority plan.

He even subsequently modified it at our event (Expo at Milton Keynes) in light of my question to him regarding democratic accountability to the wider electorate outside of the area of the proposed PLA in question.

My article in the July issue of PHTM was a response to his proposal.

It is worth noting that Mike Smith of the IoL was also sceptical.

The article can be read here, "A Brave New World - The Future of Our Industry"

https://www.phtm.co.uk/july2024

Regarding job losses, our Jim proposes to retain all licensing staff to run local 'satellite' offices feeding into the PLA to deal with admin and local enforcement.

As for unitary authorities replacing district councils under so- called "Levelling Up," we will have to see what the new government intend to do in this respect.

I think that the mirroring of HC intended use and working predominantly in your own licensing area is a good idea, as it at least stops the issue of remote licensing which is the real problem, not occasional crossborder working.

However, enforcement of 75 (1) (a) is probably easier than that of intended use [in the district] for PHVs.

_________________
Steve.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2024 7:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 55018
Location: 1066 Country
Button’s numbers just don’t add up.

The basket case council he doesn’t name have an incredibly low level of taxi/PH licensing fees.

There is no way that level would fund a national set of localised offices and officials.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2024 8:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37321
Location: Wayneistan
My one point to contradict Mr Button would be in respect of hackneys working across borders.

Whilst I appreciate the current issue with Wolverhampton, we shouldn't forget about the situation with Berwick HC's and Rossendale HC's working remotely a few years before the Wolverhampton situation developed (and I appreciate when they were working away they were being used as PH not HC)

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 125 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 77 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group