Taxi Driver Online :: View topic - Limiting the numbers of PH. NTA-V-SCATA

I'm a NTA member, I think to a certain degree the SCATA article was overcritical of the NTA, hence the response, (that was not the official opinion of the NTA in anycase).

Balls to private hire, I'm a taxi driver!

The T&G and NTA aint too far apart in their aims, yet the T&G accept PH as members, the countries hack trade needs a purely HC body, the NTA is the only one out there outside of London.

I honestly cannot understand the argument in limiting PH, it has caused so much hassle in the HC business when people buy "businesses" at inflated prices, associations trying to defend numbers control when there is obviously an unmet demand. The same would surely follow in the PH business.

Incidentally, the PH aspect also shows the flaw in the 'unmet demand' test - any general unmet demand for taxi services is met by PH growth, so when the next survey is required, there's usually not that much difference in unmet demand on the streets, thus only a small release of plates is required, if any.

It would be interesting to compare HC growth with PH growth in quoated cities over the last couple of decades or so - the PH would probably show huge growth everwhere, while HC would be tiny, as per the above analysis.

Dusty

You never give up dusty! in many towns there is a brake being put on private hire, age of vehicles and knowledge tests but two examples, there will be more.

both these are not legal.

Wharfie

Wharfie wrote:

both these are not legal.

Wharfie

Well I'll take your word for that until I get the Button book!

But there are dozens of LAs who have them.

Incidentally, the price for JTB's book the Butterworth's website has been changed from £55 to £59 pounds after at least a year, so this would suggest that publication is imminent.

Mind you, if they change the price as often as they changed the publication date, then by the time it's published I'll be better off buying the Hyde book!

Dusty

Author:	Sussex [ Mon Oct 20, 2003 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Limiting the numbers of PH. NTA-V-SCATA
In the Sept edition of Taxi-talk magazine, The Southern Counties Alliance of Taxi Associations (SCATA) suggested that a solution to the problem of more and more licensed PH vehicles, would be to cap their numbers. In the Oct edition of Taxi-talk magazine, The National Taxi Association (NTA) suggested that such a policy was folly. So who's right? Well for someone who has fought for many moons, that capping HC numbers is crazy, I can't really see me supporting capping PH numbers. But even if I did support capping PHs, the practicalities of doing such a thing, make it impossible. How do you adequately assess the number of PHs that need to be capped? With the cross-border issue, how do you know what council the PH is licensed by, that is doing the work? Take Gatwick as an example, there are hundreds of thousands of PH hirings there, but it's not all done by Crawley PHs. It's done by hundreds of different PHs, from hundreds of different councils. How the hell do you assess that? There are many more reasons not to cap PHs, which no doubt will come out, but from the HC side of the street it would be sheer madness. If you cap PHs, then there is no-longer the avenue of PHs taking the un-met demand, the HC trade cannot meet. Hence when surveys take place, that un-met demand will be very much apparent, and an increase in HC vehicles will follow. This will then lead to the diluting of the HC plate premium , and a new PH plate premium. So is that what the HC 'powers that be' want?

Author:	JP [ Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:03 pm ]
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They wanted to put a limit on private hire vehicles in Scotland. But I dont think that the consultation has been finalized. JP

Author:	Dusty Bin [ Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:09 am ]
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That was probably what caused the OFT investigation! Dusty

Author:	Guest [ Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:05 pm ]
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I'm a NTA member, I think to a certain degree the SCATA article was overcritical of the NTA, hence the response, (that was not the official opinion of the NTA in anycase). It is the members of the NTA that dictate policy, therefore surely it is the members of the NTA who are ultimately accountable for any possible lack of momentum. The members elect the officials, if they cant do the job they should move on and be unelected by the membership, on a regional level its one association one vote anyway. The SCATA article accused the NTA of London bias, this is simply not true, the NTA dont have a single member in London save for the ODS. The SCATA article said that they were opposed to delimitation across the country, but were in favour of limitation of private hire. Limitation of private hire is all well and good, but I would like to know what is beyond it, do SCATA members own private hire cars? as limiting numbers leads to a value on a license. I personally believe that anyone wishing to invest themselves into a £30,000 TX2, pass all the tests their local authority should set and then pay [edited by admin] for the insurance, has invested enough to be granted a license, but its a more regulated entry into the trade and proves a certain amount of commitment. Balls to private hire, I'm a taxi driver! I think the NTA admin officer says it every month in taxi talk, youve got to join the NTA to change things, make the commitment, then whinge.

Author:	Sussex [ Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:47 pm ]
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Anonymous wrote: I'm a NTA member, I think to a certain degree the SCATA article was overcritical of the NTA, hence the response, (that was not the official opinion of the NTA in anycase). Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if the lad from SCATA wants to have a pop at the NTA, then why on earth bring the limiting of PH vehicles into the argument? Limiting PH numbers isn't going to happen, for many years I have been fighting to get Limos and the like into the licensing system. Are we now going to say that even if the Gov sort out this Limo mess, they still wont be able to be licensed, cos there is a numbers limit. Folly I'm afraid, sheer folly.

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Author:	Sussex [ Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:49 pm ]
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Anonymous wrote: Balls to private hire, I'm a taxi driver! I agree with you that an end to the PH trade could be a good thing, but I bet we differ on the way to do it.

Author:	captain cab [ Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:33 pm ]
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The SCATA article slagged off both the T&G and the NTA, the guy (doug) obviously wants to push his own body, but dissing on other bodies aint gonna get him any respect and it aint the way to do it. The T&G and NTA aint too far apart in their aims, yet the T&G accept PH as members, the countries hack trade needs a purely HC body, the NTA is the only one out there outside of London. I honestly cannot understand the argument in limiting PH, it has caused so much hassle in the HC business when people buy "businesses" at inflated prices, associations trying to defend numbers control when there is obviously an unmet demand. The same would surely follow in the PH business. As for the stretched limos, I think you are right.

Author:	Cgull [ Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:21 pm ]
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captain cab wrote: The T&G and NTA aint too far apart in their aims, yet the T&G accept PH as members, the countries hack trade needs a purely HC body, the NTA is the only one out there outside of London. The firm I work with has PH vehicles on, and they are a member of the NTA. For the record though, I drive a HC, but I dont own it.

Author:	Dusty Bin [ Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:57 am ]
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captain cab wrote: I honestly cannot understand the argument in limiting PH, it has caused so much hassle in the HC business when people buy "businesses" at inflated prices, associations trying to defend numbers control when there is obviously an unmet demand. The same would surely follow in the PH business. Yes, I agree with your reasoning for not limiting PH, and it simply won't happen anyway. However, I think the argument for limiting PH is reasonably clear, it's that good old 'self-interest'. Let's face it, the HC trade everywhere complain about PH encroaching onto its patch, if he didn't exist then HC earnings would be higher, as would plate values, where relevant. Obviously many wouldn't like a PH sector at all, but they know that that's an unrealistic goal, so a second best is capping PH numbers a la HC. There are obviously HC quotas in many areas, and thus supply fails to keep pace with demand, and the PH sector expands to fill the gap, and the HC trade are obviously very aware of this. I was reading some anti-PH stuff on the Fastblacks forum in Edinburgh recently, for example, and one of the major gripes in Edinburgh seems to be the recent growth of the PH sector. In fact in coparison to other big cities the PH sector is small - around 650 PH compared to around 1,250 HC. However, while in the last couple of years or so the number of HC has increased by less than 3% (presumably due to a release of new plates), the number of PH has increased by over 50%, which is will clearly be very obvious to the HC trade. Thus the 'second best' option of capping PH - the Edinburgh experience and similar may well have been the source of the Scottish proposal last year. You may be correct that some in SCATA may have PH plates as well, so there's a double self-interest, but we all know that their are many conflicting interests in the trade. Dusty

Author:	Dusty Bin [ Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:02 am ]
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Incidentally, the PH aspect also shows the flaw in the 'unmet demand' test - any general unmet demand for taxi services is met by PH growth, so when the next survey is required, there's usually not that much difference in unmet demand on the streets, thus only a small release of plates is required, if any. It would be interesting to compare HC growth with PH growth in quoated cities over the last couple of decades or so - the PH would probably show huge growth everwhere, while HC would be tiny, as per the above analysis. Dusty

Author:	Yorkie [ Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:25 am ]
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Dusty Bin wrote: Incidentally, the PH aspect also shows the flaw in the 'unmet demand' test - any general unmet demand for taxi services is met by PH growth, so when the next survey is required, there's usually not that much difference in unmet demand on the streets, thus only a small release of plates is required, if any. It would be interesting to compare HC growth with PH growth in quoated cities over the last couple of decades or so - the PH would probably show huge growth everwhere, while HC would be tiny, as per the above analysis. Dusty You never give up dusty! in many towns there is a brake being put on private hire, age of vehicles and knowledge tests but two examples, there will be more. both these are not legal. Wharfie

Author:	Guest [ Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:55 am ]
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Wharfie wrote: You never give up dusty! in many towns there is a brake being put on private hire, age of vehicles and knowledge tests but two examples, there will be more. Yes Wharfy, the brake will slow things, but not stop the process. Take Brighton, for example, similar conditions for HC and PH. HC static for years (until now, of course), while PH have increased by over 100 in the last three years. Dusty

Author:	Guest [ Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:00 am ]
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Wharfie wrote: both these are not legal. Wharfie Well I'll take your word for that until I get the Button book! But there are dozens of LAs who have them. Incidentally, the price for JTB's book the Butterworth's website has been changed from £55 to £59 pounds after at least a year, so this would suggest that publication is imminent. Mind you, if they change the price as often as they changed the publication date, then by the time it's published I'll be better off buying the Hyde book! Dusty

Author:	Yorkie [ Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:18 am ]
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Anonymous wrote: Wharfie wrote: both these are not legal. Wharfie Well I'll take your word for that until I get the Button book! But there are dozens of LAs who have them. Incidentally, the price for JTB's book the Butterworth's website has been changed from £55 to £59 pounds after at least a year, so this would suggest that publication is imminent. Mind you, if they change the price as often as they changed the publication date, then by the time it's published I'll be better off buying the Hyde book! Dusty I will buy it if he autographs it for me Wharfie

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Author:	captain cab [ Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:39 pm ]
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The current system we have is not ideal. Unfortunately SCATA have not really told us what their little world would involve, especially the pitfalls. I honestly think that if all the loopholes are filled, a system is developed where hacks are increased on an annual basis but gradually, with purpose built cabs we will have a possible solution. A £30 grand investment shows a commitment, and I dont think anyone in their right minds would disagree.