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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:00 pm 
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http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/democracy/ ... ID%3d35803

Click on the PDF dowloadable items on this page.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:39 pm 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/democracy/Pages/AgendaDetail.aspx?AgendaID%3d35803

Click on the PDF dowloadable items on this page.

Taxi numbers have increase by just under 400 in the last 9 years, yet PH numbers have increased by nearly 2,000.

Why is that if it's dead? :?

Also the consultants recommend quality controls instead of quantity controls.

What's wrong with that? :?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:58 pm 
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I'm also sure their opinion of no SUD based on rank observations of only 81 hours, for 1339 taxis, will not stand up in court if challenged.

Compare that to the York's 180 hours of rank observations for only 158 taxis lead cynical old me to conclude Birmingham did their survey on the very cheap. [-X

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:17 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
I'm also sure their opinion of no SUD based on rank observations of only 81 hours, for 1339 taxis, will not stand up in court if challenged.

Compare that to the York's 180 hours of rank observations for only 158 taxis lead cynical old me to conclude Birmingham did their survey on the very cheap. [-X


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:19 pm 
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ALSO

Where in the whole document does it ever state Significant

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:20 pm 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
ALSO

Where in the whole document does it ever state Significant

If it doesn't then one has to wonder what the point of the observations were. :?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:25 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
I'm also sure their opinion of no SUD based on rank observations of only 81 hours, for 1339 taxis, will not stand up in court if challenged.

Compare that to the York's 180 hours of rank observations for only 158 taxis lead cynical old me to conclude Birmingham did their survey on the very cheap. [-X


If challenged Sussex.

The point surely is that the council are the ones who decide at the first stage, not the court.

Personally I dont see where PH should come into a Hackney Carriage demand survey, so their increase is in my opinion not as relevent as the increase in HC's.

As for the increase in PH, perhaps the conditions and purchase prices of PHV's are less onerous than the conditions and prices placed on HC's?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:56 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Taxi numbers have increase by just under 400 in the last 9 years, yet PH numbers have increased by nearly 2,000.

Why is that if it's dead? :?


Only two questions, but not such a simple answer so I will bullet point the main reasons only;

These are;

• De-regulation in 1996 was accompanied with a policy of new free issue Hackney plate must have a brand new WAV.
• This was to control quality.
• Prior to de-restriction in 1996 there were about 750 Hackneys in Birmingham.
• Since de-restriction in 1996 a further 757 licenses have been issued to-date.
• The current fleet is about 1380.
• Add the 750 and 757 together & subtract the current 1380 in the fleet & that is how many HC licenses are not longer used. (Strongly suspect that the majority of these have been handed back to the council by proprietors that can no longer earn a living).
• PHV numbers have increased from approx 2,500 in 1999 to about 5,300 at the time of the survey.
• Entry to the PH trade is with a vehicle with a maximum age of 8 years old.
• Vehicles such as Ford Escort & similar small cars are licenses as PHVs in Birmingham.
• Entry level eight year old PHVs can be purchased for well under £1K.
• Entry level brand new WAV Hackneys cost £23-37K (Eurocabs are permitted in Birmingham).
• Many PHV drivers work part time to supplement other income.
• Illegal plying for hire by PHVs is rampant to a most exemplary standard.
• It is not unusual to see 50 cabs on one side of Broad Street (the main entertainment area) in line to pick up at the marshalled rank & IT IS CUSTOM & PRACTICE TO SEE AT LEAST as many PHVs on the opposite side of the road forming multiple ranks in direct competition, without being challenged for months on end.
• Enforcement is ………….. YOU DECIDE WHICH ADJECTIVE YOU WANT TO USE.
• With enforcement at such a critical level, would you bother to by a WAV Hackney for £23K plus, if you could buy a sub-£1K PHV & do the same job, including plying for hire, knowing that if you illegally ply for hire in a PHV, your chances of being caught are longer than winning an outright Jackpot on EuroMillions.
• It is extremely common for PHVs that illegally ply for hire to overcharge to vicious extent. During the run-up to Christmas 2006, the local paper reported one passenger being quoted, (& he paid) £59 for a journey of less than 4 miles.
• If PHVs illegally plying for hire are able to get away with these charges, why would they bother to spend £23k plus for a Hackney licence & have to work on the meter to the Table of Fares.
• Whilst PHVs predominantly ply for hire at night, there are also ‘hot spots’ of activity during the day, with the NEC (within the Metropolitan Borough of Solihull, but the complex is owned by Birmingham City Council) a prime example, especially when there are major events there.
• Reasonably difficult Knowledge Test for HC drivers.
• No Knowledge Test for PHV drivers.
• Not unusual for illegal PHV ranks to block roads & streets completely at night.
• Out of town illegal plying for hire is also rampant, with one driver from West Bromwich (Sandwell licensed), openly boasting that he only works Thursday to Sunday & always ‘pirates’ in Birmingham & can earn £1200 in the 4 days, with the fares he charges.
• At one venue in the city, council appointed & paid for taxi rank marshals openly load passengers into PHVs lined up in a rank.
• UNDER THESE CONDITIONS WOULD YOU BUY A WAV HACKNEY AT £23k PLUS, WHEN YOU CAN BUY A SUB-£1K PHV & DO THE SAME JOB & EARN A MUCH, MUCH BIGGER WAD!!!!!!!!!!!
• Etc, etc. etc.


The answer to your second question will be in my next post later this evening.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:00 am 
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Sussex wrote:
Also the consultants recommend quality controls instead of quantity controls.

What's wrong with that? :?


Subject to my first bullet point below, under equilibrium conditions (as consultancy companies like to write) this would be fine. But Birmingham Hackney & PH are a long, long way from equilibrium conditions.

Again I will bullet point the reasons why the consultancy’s recommendations for age (not quality) control are not sustainable under the current position that both the Birmingham Hackney & PH trade find themselves in.

• Firstly, although the Study Report mentions a quality policy, it actually recommends an age policy, which although linked IS NOT THE SAME THING.
• Quality of vehicle is about how the proprietor of the vehicle looks after his HC or PHV.
• There are 12 year old HCs in Birmingham that are so pristine that they would grace a bride on her way to marry her groom.
• Conversely, there are 3, 5 & 7 year old HCs that are a disgrace to the trade, with last weekend’s chip papers still in the passenger compartment & that have not had a whiff of an air freshener since the driver last had a haircut.
• The above two points are also relevant to PHVs.
• These points are again an enforcement issue; if the drivers cannot keep their vehicles up to standard, then enforcement should do spot checks.
• So a vehicle age policy is NOT the same thing as a quality of vehicle policy. It is quite conceivable to have Proprietor A not being able to maintain a 4 year old vehicle to the standards (that should be) required, whilst Proprietor B is quite capable of maintaining a 12 - 15 year old vehicle to the standards (that should be) required.
• De-restriction is so far advanced in Birmingham that if the council adopt the Study Report’s recommendations, over 1200 HC in the current fleet would need to be upgraded by 2012.
• This represents over 85% of the HC fleet.
• Upgrading WAVs to a maximum age of 7 year old vehicles by 2012 is excessive & incomprehensible.
• It is obvious that many in the HC fleet will not be in a financial position to manage this upgrade.
• The council introduced a policy of de-restriction in 1996, against the wishes of the taxi trade (although the trade did manage to convince the council to adopt a policy of free issue HC licence must have a brand new WAV, to try & maintain incoming quality), & 12 years on there is an age/quality policy proposal on the table, that if adopted will undoubtedly put proprietors out of work.
• Obviously, the HC trade had to work with the council's decision of 1996.
• UNDER EQUILIBRIUM CONDITIONS, the idea of upgrading your vehicle is accepted.
• However, the Birmingham taxi trade is a million miles from an equilibrium position & is massively oversupplied. To follow the recommendations of the report would be morally repugnant due to the losses of livelihood that would occur.
• If the report’s recommendations were to be adopted, the logical scenario that would follow would be for proprietors who could not upgrade (due to financial constraints) to transfer their plate to multi-owner, as they would probably be the only ones with enough financial muscle to both pay any premium value that the plate may still have & also to fund an upgrade of the vehicle. And the result would be that previous proprietors would be driving for multi-owners & could be using a HC with the plate number that they previously owned. (I just wonder if this was the scenario in decades gone by in New York???)
• There are no figures available yet for PHVs that would need to be upgraded if the proposed recommendations were adopted, but it is estimated that over 90% of the present PHV fleet would go by 2012.
• Again there would be loss of livelihood.
• None of these recommendations, even if adopted, would start to address the problems of enforcement (mentioned in my previous post), especially with 'out-of-towners' plying for hire in their older vehicles & both HC & PHV licensed in Birmingham having to compete with their newer, far more costly vehicles.
• Birmingham is surrounded by 7 other licensing authorities, with several others in close proximity. It is a stone blind certainty that if the Study Report’s recommendations for a maximum age policy were adopted on the PHV, many of those proprietors would get their older vehicles licensed in another neighbouring authority & continue their illegal plying for hire in Birmingham at weekends, because they already ‘know the ropes’ & are fully aware of the non-existent enforcement.
• When the above was achieved, there would be a shortfall of funds at Birmingham’s licensing department & this would place a financial burden on enforcement & in general & licesing fees would rocket.
• It is quite possible that councils up & down the country have adopted age policies as a disguise for a quality policy. IMO this is to make life much easier for themselves. If you have an age policy, then that is a hard & fast rule, NO VEHICLE OVER 12 YEARS OLD, full-stop. No work for the enforcement officers, the policy takes care of that.
• A quality policy though is subjective & would usually requires a written code of minimum quality of vehicle standard (which would obviously apply to newer & older vehicles) & would need ‘GETTING UP OFF BACKSIDE’ to draft the code & inspect & make a decision. Life would then be a lot harder for the poor enforcement officers.
• AN AGE OF VEHICLE POLICY IS NOT A QUALITY OF VEHICLE POLICY!!!
• And last but by no means least an extract from the DfT's Taxi and Private Hire Vehicle Licensing: Best Practice Guidance;
Section 22
Sub-section Age Limits.
It is perfectly possible for an older vehicle to be in good condition. So the setting of an age limit beyond which a local authority will not license vehicles may be arbitrary and inappropriate. But a greater frequency of testing may be appropriate for older vehicles – for example, twice-yearly tests for vehicles more than five years old. (Definition of Arbitrary = Above the Law, Authoritarian, Autocratic, Dictatorial, Tyrannical, etc, etc)
Etc, etc, etc.

Goodnight, going to bed!!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:40 am 
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captain cab wrote:
If challenged Sussex.

The point surely is that the council are the ones who decide at the first stage, not the court.

And that's what's wrong.

Councillors are experts at one thing only, and that's spending/wasting other folks money.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
captain cab wrote:
If challenged Sussex.

The point surely is that the council are the ones who decide at the first stage, not the court.

And that's what's wrong.

Councillors are experts at one thing only, and that's spending/wasting other folks money.


I disagree, MP's are experts at that too :wink:

CC

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:41 pm 
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Quote:
• AN AGE OF VEHICLE POLICY IS NOT A QUALITY OF VEHICLE POLICY!!!
• And last but by no means least an extract from the DfT's Taxi and Private Hire Vehicle Licensing: Best Practice Guidance;
Section 22
Sub-section Age Limits.
It is perfectly possible for an older vehicle to be in good condition. So the setting of an age limit beyond which a local authority will not license vehicles may be arbitrary and inappropriate. But a greater frequency of testing may be appropriate for older vehicles – for example, twice-yearly tests for vehicles more than five years old. (Definition of Arbitrary = Above the Law, Authoritarian, Autocratic, Dictatorial, Tyrannical, etc, etc)
Etc, etc, etc.


Brummie, there is nothing to stop the council insisting that if the PH want to put on or change vehicles, that they must no be over a certain age when granted
So they could say we will not licence any PH vehicle over 3 years at first licence this would bring the numbers down a bit, the mobile sheds cannot go on for ever


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:56 pm 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Sussex wrote:
Taxi numbers have increase by just under 400 in the last 9 years, yet PH numbers have increased by nearly 2,000.

Why is that if it's dead? :?


Only two questions, but not such a simple answer so I will bullet point the main reasons only;

So if you had proper enforcement, and stiffer age limits for PH, your problems would be solved? :?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:00 pm 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
t if the council adopt the Study Report’s recommendations, over 1200 HC in the current fleet would need to be upgraded by 2012.
• This represents over 85% of the HC fleet.
• Upgrading WAVs to a maximum age of 7 year old vehicles by 2012 is excessive & incomprehensible.
• It is obvious that many in the HC fleet will not be in a financial position to manage this upgrade.

Surely an age limit is the way to get rid of the riff-raff, alongside some proper enforcement.

Or maybe 3 or 6-monthly checks for older vehicles. :?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:01 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Sussex wrote:
Taxi numbers have increase by just under 400 in the last 9 years, yet PH numbers have increased by nearly 2,000.

Why is that if it's dead? :?


Only two questions, but not such a simple answer so I will bullet point the main reasons only;

So if you had proper enforcement, and stiffer age limits for PH, your problems would be solved? :?


Correct Sussex, I know that the councils cannot restrict the numbers but they could control them with a starting age, this could be applied nationwide to alleviate numbers in some cities


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