Bookings - operator/driver - two and the same?

captain cab · **Posted:** Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:26 pm

http://www.taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3615&highlight=ogwr

Phil · **Joined:** Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:12 pm **Posts:** 18

Easy folks, I was only asking.

I did express:

Quote:

I'm not intending to do this. I certainly don't wish to step on anyones toes - the train station is definitely out of bounds.
However, what about public events? An operator can take bookings from anywhere in the country, (right?) so in theory an operator/driver could drive to the O2 or Edinburgh Castle or anywhere, complete with door signs, and when approached 'simply' take a booking and presto!

Am I being naive here? Or is this technically, if not necessarily morally, correct?

The 'not' being in bold. I'm just starting out and was enquiring about 'what someone had told me'.
Of course I don't want to upset anyone. I suggested the example given was morally questionable. And the 02 and Edinburgh Castle references were short hand for 'from Scotland down to London', ie. anywhere and everywhere - I won't be working near either venue.

It was a technical enquiry and never intended as a red rag to anyone. I apologise if it seemed that way.

I suppose the question itself, though genuine, was naive. And is open to endless degrees of interpretation. eg. suppose an operator/driver PH was dropping off at the station - that can't be touting - and then receives a diverted call from a potential client who has just clocked the number on the door sign...

Ok, I'm succombing to the temptation to act, well, post, technically rather than humanely. And of course I want to 'play the game'.

The linked case isn't quite the same:

Quote:

The fare was indicated as £ 1.40 and before setting off Mr Thomas radioed in to his base to record the booking.

Obviously? that's dodgy. But what if Mr Thomas had said, upon being asked if he was free 'You'll have to phone the base...'? The base could even put a call out "car Ridgeway Arms" and Mr Thomas could respond etc.
Or had Mr Thomas been a sole operator/driver set up, different again and more relevant to the issue I'd raised.

I sincerely appreciate the responses, but must admit it's made the situation greyer than ever.
Surely it can't be the case that no one can ever make a booing because they've seen a door sign. That'd be daft.
So when does it become 'touting'? Must there be a HC rank nearby?

It's all so murky (especially? to an ignorant mewbie like me). Say I went to a football match, parked up nearby, got back to the car and put my signs on...how far from the departing crowd must I be before I'm no longer classed as a tout?

I can't see how it's possible to distinguish between legitimate parking up and touting, outside the obvious, such as the 02 etc...then again, suppose I'd been to a gig there...

Alright, discussing this with myself I can't reach a definite conclusion, so it's unlikely one will be reached fullstop. Personally I do have a conscience, and I'm certainly not aiming to stick my oar, or Superb, (should I get one) in anywhere it's not wanted. But there are limits, surely an operator/driver can'tbe expected to remove door signs everywhere s/he goes, stopping for lunch, popping in to Tesco etc...

Perhaps I've underestimated the amount of working operator/drivers. I imagined it to be relatively rare, so seldom causing too much of a problem. Even to the extent of HCs noticing a door sign 'Who's that then? Another new company...not seen them...' followed by 'Oh, it's so-and-so, he works on his own, nothing to worry about there.' And once HCs knew they weren't up against a potential wave of touts, just the 'odd' operator/driver happening to pull over somewhere not so desolate and have a passer by call the number on the door sign, they wouldn't feel so agrieved.

Thanks again for the passionate replies.

wannabeeahack · **Posted:** Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:55 pm

Mr Thomas was the holder of licence to drive a private hire vehicle.

On 1 July 2000, the vehicle he was driving was a licensed private hire vehicle with Terry's Taxis written on it. (which it shouldnt have had)

Mr Thomas was stationary outside the Ridgeway Arms public house, parked just off the road.

Next to the public house was a restaurant.

A passenger approached Mr Thomas and asked if he was free. (how was he a passenger before getting in the vehicle?)

Upon being told that the taxi was free the passenger entered and asked to be taken to another public house.

The fare was indicated as £ 1.40 and before setting off Mr Thomas radioed in to his base to record the booking. (if he had radioed in BEFORE taking the booking (or allowing the customer to enter the vehicle)"hello base, can you take a booking please" he would have been ok)

prebooked is the issue, carrying a sign could be seen as "touting"

captain cab · **Posted:** Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:25 am

wannabeeahack wrote:

Mr Thomas was the holder of licence to drive a private hire vehicle.

On 1 July 2000, the vehicle he was driving was a licensed private hire vehicle with Terry's Taxis written on it. (which it shouldnt have had)

Mr Thomas was stationary outside the Ridgeway Arms public house, parked just off the road.

Next to the public house was a restaurant.

A passenger approached Mr Thomas and asked if he was free. (how was he a passenger before getting in the vehicle?)

Upon being told that the taxi was free the passenger entered and asked to be taken to another public house.

The fare was indicated as £ 1.40 and before setting off Mr Thomas radioed in to his base to record the booking. (if he had radioed in BEFORE taking the booking (or allowing the customer to enter the vehicle)"hello base, can you take a booking please" he would have been ok)

prebooked is the issue, carrying a sign could be seen as "touting"

I dont think it could be seen as touting....but lurking in the vicinity might.

CC

captain cab · **Posted:** Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:33 am

The prosecution appealed by way of case stated. The question for the opinion of the High Court was whether the driver of a marked mini-cab, whose vehicle was not a licensed hackney carriage, was plying for hire if he, without more, was asked by a member of public if his vehicle was free and, having indicated that it was and received details of the prospective journey and disclosed a price for it, placed a booking with his base before the journey started.

The appeal would be allowed.

In the circumstances of the instant case, the reasons given by the district judge for finding that there was no case to answer indicated that he was influenced by matters that were irrelevant to the issue of plying for hire in the circumstances of the instant case. That which took place after T had informed L of the fare, whether it amounted to a booking via the taxi base or confirmation of a booking taken at the scene, was not relevant to the question of whether a prima facie case had been made out.

Accordingly, as the trial had not reached a conclusion, the question would be answered in the affirmative, but with the rider that what was being decided was that, without more, there was a case to answer.

jogra4 · **Joined:** Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:44 am **Posts:** 107

wannabeeahack wrote:

Sussex wrote:

Phil wrote:

In summary: the operator/driver pulls in (not in a rank, naturally)...a prospective client sees the vehicle, walks over to enquire if it's free. The driver dons their operators cap, asks if the prospective client would like to book the vehicle, the client says 'yes', the operator says 'your car should be there immediately'... The driver confirms the booking reference and the client gets in.

As clear as case of touting as one can get, and maybe liable for a smack on the hooter from the cab trade. :wink:

nope

prebooked obviously

especially as there is no clear definition of prebooked, id have moved 5 yds after taking the booking and said get in chap

BTW, any act of violence from a HC driver would result in loss of his licence/badge/plate,etc...
or a bigger smack from a bigger PH driver

cant you go back on courier exchange mr high and mighty p.h driver

wannabeeahack · **Posted:** Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:25 am

go back?

if i told you a few things you wouldnt say silly things like that

:lol:

anyway, my vans now LHD and on polish plates

jogra4 · **Joined:** Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:44 am **Posts:** 107

oh aye whys that then ?

APH · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:45 am

Phil wrote:

More potentially tedious enquiries I'm afraid folks...

Naturally I can, and will, ask the licensing office direct. But until I'm licensed I really don't to annoy them, as I fear this might, so:

In these parts it's possible to be a single person / sole trader operator and driver. All well and good. It's possible to be Hackney too, and work for an operator, but that's another story.

When trains from London arrive at the city station there's often a huge queue for City licensed 'green (black) hackney cabs'. There can be up to thirty of them in a huge rank outside the station and (even) this isn't enough at peak periods.
Across from the taxi pull in, there's a drop-off 20 min car park and a seperate drop-off / pick-up zone. If a private hire vehicle, with door signs, pulled in to the area, the telephone number would be visable to those in the queue for the hackney carriages.
I assumed it was 'fine', well, 'within the rules' to sit there for a minute, and upon catching the eye of anyone in the queue, gesture to the door sign (telephone number) encouraging them to book, take the booking, then just wave them over.
I put this to someone and their words were "It gets better..." I was then told, for a booking/fare to be legitimate, the only stipulation (apart from the numerics) is that the booking must be made through the operator. And in this scenario, someone simply walking over to the vehicle and asking is sufficient, as the driver is also the operator.

In summary: the operator/driver pulls in (not in a rank, naturally)...a prospective client sees the vehicle, walks over to enquire if it's free. The driver dons their operators cap, asks if the prospective client would like to book the vehicle, the client says 'yes', the operator says 'your car should be there immediately'... The driver confirms the booking reference and the client gets in.

I'm not intending to do this. I certainly don't wish to step on anyones toes - the train station is definitely out of bounds.
However, what about public events? An operator can take bookings from anywhere in the country, (right?) so in theory an operator/driver could drive to the O2 or Edinburgh Castle or anywhere, complete with door signs, and when approached 'simply' take a booking and presto!

Am I being naive here? Or is this technically, if not necessarily morally, correct?

I guess (if so) it's not a huge problem as there aren't many operator/driver sole trader set-ups anyway.

Thanks in anticipation.

Leeds City Council say you cannot divert your land line to your mobile to take a booking, but you can take a booking on your mobile if it comes in the form of a text message. As regards to picking up the passenger immediately, the rule used to be you couldn't pick up until the call had been in for 20 minutes but I don't know if this still applies as it is no longer enforced but not much is enforced on private hire in Leeds these days.

grandad · **Joined:** Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:27 pm **Posts:** 20130

APH wrote:

Phil wrote:

As regards to picking up the passenger immediately, the rule used to be you couldn't pick up until the call had been in for 20 minutes but I don't know if this still applies as it is no longer enforced but not much is enforced on private hire in Leeds these days.

That would work well when someone rings up for a cab in the pouring rain and you have to tell them "sorry but the council say you will have to wait 20 minutes" :lol:

skippy41 · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:29 pm

Quote:

but not much is enforced on private hire in Leeds these days.

I will second that, having done 2 minibus runs to Leeds to raves and watched the Ph pick up without bookings most of the night.

wannabeeahack · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:42 pm

jogra4 wrote:

oh aye whys that then ?

er, cos the new owners polish maybe?...

he bought 6 motorbikes to take back, shipping was too expensive, so he bought my van and had it converted to LHD, the swine even sent me the photos, my cup holder and extra door mirrors were still in place, and the mp3 cd player

APH · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:22 pm

grandad wrote:

That would work well when someone rings up for a cab in the pouring rain and you have to tell them "sorry but the council say you will have to wait 20 minutes" :lol:

Thats the whole idea of pre-booking

Sussex · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:04 pm

APH wrote:

grandad wrote:

That would work well when someone rings up for a cab in the pouring rain and you have to tell them "sorry but the council say you will have to wait 20 minutes" :lol:

Thats the whole idea of pre-booking

What happens when a PH goes to a pre-booked job and the customer asks for an extra PH?

Do you say to the punter 'no problem, I will take half of the party and the other car will be another 20 mins'?

wannabeeahack · **Posted:** Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:37 am

Sussex wrote:

APH wrote:

grandad wrote:

That would work well when someone rings up for a cab in the pouring rain and you have to tell them "sorry but the council say you will have to wait 20 minutes" :lol:

Thats the whole idea of pre-booking

What happens when a PH goes to a pre-booked job and the customer asks for an extra PH?

Do you say to the punter 'no problem, I will take half of the party and the other car will be another 20 mins'?

sounds pre-booked to me.....

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