Taxi Driver Online

UK cab trade debate and advice
It is currently Sun Apr 26, 2026 4:06 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:27 pm
Posts: 20130
Skull wrote:

Quality Grumpy, you might want to send your letter to the Lord Advocate, Elish Angiolini.



:wink:


Good old Scottish name!

_________________
Grandad,


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:54 am
Posts: 10460
grandad wrote:
Skull wrote:

Quality Grumpy, you might want to send your letter to the Lord Advocate, Elish Angiolini.



:wink:


Good old Scottish name!


10/10


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

_________________
All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.
George Orwell, "Animal Farm"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:33 pm
Posts: 1357
Location: grangemouth
OK, first draft...............

Dear Sir or Madam,
I write with regard to a recent judgement made by Fiscal Neil Allan not to prosecute, as a criminal offence, a passenger who refused to pay his taxi fare, at his journey’s conclusion. I was always under the impression the Courts and Police Service in Scotland had the power to bring charges against any person deemed to have committed such an offence. It transpires that, in the circumstance when the customer knowingly did not have the means to pay his metered fare, at the onset of the hire he can, under present legislation, be criminally charged and prosecuted for Taxi Fraud.

However, if he has the money to pay, but for whatever reason, justified or not, he disputes the request to pay his fare, he can walk away with no fear of being taken to task for his actions, other than through the Civil Courts. Which I feel would be a long and prohibitively expensive process, with possibly countless charges having to be brought on a weekly basis.

As the present legislation stands there is no equivalent to the charge of Taxi Theft, as contained in the 1998 Theft Act (English Statutory Law). I feel that this is a matter requiring urgent action by both The Scottish Government and The Legal Profession.

A taxi driver should be no different in law to that of any other company or trade, who as far as I am aware have the right to press charges through the criminal courts if the service it has provided, is not subsequently paid for. If that is the case then surely there is nothing preventing our trade to be offered the same protection from those who would wish to steal from us.

I would urge you to support any motion placed before the Scottish Government to amend the legislation to adopt a similar statute to that mentioned above.

I am sure I need not go into how I feel our trade, or indeed any trade, would suffer if it were the practice for customers to forego any common decency, and put not only our, but that of our families, at greater financial risk than that we are presently experiencing.

Thank you for taking the time to read my letter, and I trust that you will consider my request and allow my colleagues and myself the comfort that we are, in some way, able to go about our business with the knowledge that if we are wrongly denied our fare, someone is available, be it the police or the courts, to administer justice, in any legal action that may be deemed appropriate.

_________________
My heart is heavy, but my consience clear,
I voted Yes, without any fear.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:07 am
Posts: 2596
Location: Hampshire (HC)
That's great. Better than I could do! :oops:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:54 am
Posts: 10460
The bigger picture!

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/MSP/m ... /index.htm

They'd better not pull this Civil shi* with me .. . you do the job, you get paid, enough is enough . . . .


:evil:

_________________
All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.
George Orwell, "Animal Farm"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:54 am
Posts: 10460
grumpy wrote:
OK, first draft...............

Dear Sir or Madam,
I write with regard to a recent judgement made by Fiscal Neil Allan not to prosecute, as a criminal offence, a passenger who refused to pay his taxi fare, at his journey’s conclusion. I was always under the impression the Courts and Police Service in Scotland had the power to bring charges against any person deemed to have committed such an offence. It transpires that, in the circumstance when the customer knowingly did not have the means to pay his metered fare, at the onset of the hire he can, under present legislation, be criminally charged and prosecuted for Taxi Fraud.

However, if he has the money to pay, but for whatever reason, justified or not, he disputes the request to pay his fare, he can walk away with no fear of being taken to task for his actions, other than through the Civil Courts. Which I feel would be a long and prohibitively expensive process, with possibly countless charges having to be brought on a weekly basis.

As the present legislation stands there is no equivalent to the charge of Taxi Theft, as contained in the 1998 Theft Act (English Statutory Law). I feel that this is a matter requiring urgent action by both The Scottish Government and The Legal Profession.

A taxi driver should be no different in law to that of any other company or trade, who as far as I am aware have the right to press charges through the criminal courts if the service it has provided, is not subsequently paid for. If that is the case then surely there is nothing preventing our trade to be offered the same protection from those who would wish to steal from us.

I would urge you to support any motion placed before the Scottish Government to amend the legislation to adopt a similar statute to that mentioned above.

I am sure I need not go into how I feel our trade, or indeed any trade, would suffer if it were the practice for customers to forego any common decency, and put not only our, but that of our families, at greater financial risk than that we are presently experiencing.

Thank you for taking the time to read my letter, and I trust that you will consider my request and allow my colleagues and myself the comfort that we are, in some way, able to go about our business with the knowledge that if we are wrongly denied our fare, someone is available, be it the police or the courts, to administer justice, in any legal action that may be deemed appropriate.


Better than I could do . . . =D>

_________________
All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.
George Orwell, "Animal Farm"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:07 am
Posts: 2596
Location: Hampshire (HC)
On reading again, you need to ask, nay demand, that the recipient puts a bill before parliament. Support can be lobbied later; First off you need to get some proposed legislation on the way.

I would also 'paint a picture' by suggesting the 'shoplifting' scenario.

Get everyone you can to write in similar vein to different individuals. DON'T use exactly the same wording - It looks like a standard letter!

What about the other Scots on here? Can you all agree a strategy to encourage your MSPs to take up the case? This is fundamental to your trade, IMHO.

Further thoughts will follow as sobriety returns!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:26 am 
It doesn't matter what you do, even here they tell us it's a civil matter.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:04 pm
Posts: 2859
Location: SCOTLAND
grumpy wrote:
OK, first draft...............

Dear Sir or Madam,
I write with regard to a recent judgement made by Fiscal Neil Allan not to prosecute, as a criminal offence, a passenger who refused to pay his taxi fare, at his journey’s conclusion. I was always under the impression the Courts and Police Service in Scotland had the power to bring charges against any person deemed to have committed such an offence. It transpires that, in the circumstance when the customer knowingly did not have the means to pay his metered fare, at the onset of the hire he can, under present legislation, be criminally charged and prosecuted for Taxi Fraud.

However, if he has the money to pay, but for whatever reason, justified or not, he disputes the request to pay his fare, he can walk away with no fear of being taken to task for his actions, other than through the Civil Courts. Which I feel would be a long and prohibitively expensive process, with possibly countless charges having to be brought on a weekly basis.

As the present legislation stands there is no equivalent to the charge of Taxi Theft, as contained in the 1998 Theft Act (English Statutory Law). I feel that this is a matter requiring urgent action by both The Scottish Government and The Legal Profession.

A taxi driver should be no different in law to that of any other company or trade, who as far as I am aware have the right to press charges through the criminal courts if the service it has provided, is not subsequently paid for. If that is the case then surely there is nothing preventing our trade to be offered the same protection from those who would wish to steal from us.

I would urge you to support any motion placed before the Scottish Government to amend the legislation to adopt a similar statute to that mentioned above.

I am sure I need not go into how I feel our trade, or indeed any trade, would suffer if it were the practice for customers to forego any common decency, and put not only our, but that of our families, at greater financial risk than that we are presently experiencing.

Thank you for taking the time to read my letter, and I trust that you will consider my request and allow my colleagues and myself the comfort that we are, in some way, able to go about our business with the knowledge that if we are wrongly denied our fare, someone is available, be it the police or the courts, to administer justice, in any legal action that may be deemed appropriate.


Well done, your in the wrong job


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:58 pm
Posts: 2665
Jasbar wrote:
Following a decision by Fiscal Neil Allan not to prosecute a passenger who refused to pay the fare on the meter as a criminal offence, the only recourse for drivers who find themselves in this position is through a civil legal suit - a prohibitively expensive and protracted process.

Now there's no point going to the cop shop, they're not interested.

Taxi drivers in Scotland, according to the Fiscal, alone of all traders, do not have the protection of criminal charges against those who refuse to pay - who steal from them.

This means that anyone can engage a taxi, trump up a dispute or not and just refuse to pay, knowing there's little prospect of the driver taking legal action. A free gratis taxi ride.

In England Statutory Law in the guise of the 1998 Theft Act stipulates that anyone who avails himself of a service, and walks away without paying, is committing an act of Theft. There is no such protection in Scotland.

Rather than Law by Statute as in England, Scots Law is based on Common Law and Case Law. There is therefore no equivalent Law of Theft in Scotland.

Fiscals will only prosecute those who engage a taxi without having the means to pay, and then only when it suits them. They construe this as intent to defraud - Taxi Fraud.

In the case above the individual had money, so according to Fiscal Neil Allan, no fraud had been committed.

The taxi driver believes that the crime was committed when the individual evacuated from the taxi (Actus Reus) and his intent to commit the crime (Mens Rea) was proven when both the police officer and the driver urged him to pay the fare, which he refused to do, so he knew exactly what he was doing.

If this was a shoplifter or someone handed a penalty notice by a police officer for not paying on a train, then criminal charges would be brought. But not for stealing from a taxi driver.

There is a customer complaints procedure through the local authority. Hoverr, the right to make formal complaint and seek redress should not include a right not to pay - of course it doesn't.

The Fiscal's decision has brought chaos to the working lives of cabbies, and represents a real danger to the public.

It's hard going in our economy just now. How long before a hard pressed cabbie, already struggling to make ends meet, decides that because the Law wont give him protection and justice he will therefore take Law into his own hands and mete out his own retribution, just to gain what is rightfully his in the first place?

The Fiscal's intransigent incompetence in this area has placed the public at risk.

An approach has been made to the political arena. Questions are to be asked of the Lord Advocate and the Justice Secretary, Kenny MacAskill.

The story has been given to the press by the MSP involved, both national and local. It will break soon, probably early next week.

Hopefully it will invoke a positive response and a sensible resolution to this problem from senior Law officers and politicians. Theft is theft. Theft is a criminal offence. The same rule should apply here.

The way forward here could be for the individual involved here to be charged, prosecuted, the case heard by a Sheriff and any conviction in the case, subject of course to any appeal process, resulting in the establishing of a new Case law.

In the meantime, the shecht is about to hit the fan. It will cause uproar.

Just remember that this has been a problem for cabbies for as long as we can remember. It needs to be sorted. Short term pain for long term gain. The Police, prosecutors, the council, the taxi trade and customers all need to know what the position is, and it has to offer drivers the same protection as every other trader.

Just remember, our trade can not condone violence. This is a time to keep a cool head and respond with outrage during the debate. Get onto your MSP and tell him what you think, write to the press expressing your disgust.

Let's get this sorted!


Interestingly, the perp in this tale is not the expected hoody scrote type.

No, the refusnik stealing the fare is a BANKER!

Imagine, he shafts people in his daily work, and he shafts people after his nightly jolly! Quality. You couldn't make it up.

The fact he's a bone fide member of the establishment club couldn't have exerted an influence here, could it? Naw .... surely not?

Instead of the posh new hoi polloi apartment in West Granton Road, if he'd lived over the roundabout in the working class flats would he have still been allowed to walk?

_________________
Skull, "You are a police inspector, aren't you?"
Cab Inspector Smith, "Yes."
Skull, "So, are you going to tell Mr Taylor what his rights are?"
Smith, "And ... What rights?"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 10:30 am
Posts: 56
Location: The Athens of the north
Jasbar wrote:
Billy the Kid wrote:
Can we not just do what they do in other less civilised countries??? Call our friends to errrrrrr help get a payment from the customer????

Oh I almost forgot, MR. Jasper doesn't have any friends in Edinburgh to call upon. :lol:


A cheap shot about someone who is at least trying to do something about it.

Your problem, like the rest of the Scottish numpties is that you're so hooked on personalities you would ignore the real issues.

Now this post was made on this forum because it allows real debate without attracting the boo boys. You want to behave like a child then please do so on the child site. I'll even supply the link -

http://www.thetaxiforum.com/

Leave this forum for the big boys.

8)



Yer a bleathering idiot who has nothing better to do with his time. Nothing more than a wee sweetie wife. On one hand you claim to stick up for your fellow drivers rights and on the other you call us all Scottish numties. You couldn't give two ***** about drivers rights, you only want to see your name in print. You want to be a somebody instead of the nobody that you are. Anyone who has the time to write over two hundred letters to a newspaper really needs to get a life. Yes the subject matter is a serious one but I'm sorry, coming from the likes of you how can we be expected not to giggle? :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 57333
Location: 1066 Country
Jasbar wrote:
No, the refusnik stealing the fare is a BANKER!

More reason IMO to pursue the civil route, as any judgement will effect his CV.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:58 pm
Posts: 2665
Sussex wrote:
Jasbar wrote:
No, the refusnik stealing the fare is a BANKER!

More reason IMO to pursue the civil route, as any judgement will effect his CV.


Sussex, I'm confused. Didn't you mean to say more reason to pursue the criminal route? Because a criminal conviction would have ramifications for his standing with the FSA?

_________________
Skull, "You are a police inspector, aren't you?"
Cab Inspector Smith, "Yes."
Skull, "So, are you going to tell Mr Taylor what his rights are?"
Smith, "And ... What rights?"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:58 pm
Posts: 2665
Billy the Kid wrote:
Jasbar wrote:
Billy the Kid wrote:
Can we not just do what they do in other less civilised countries??? Call our friends to errrrrrr help get a payment from the customer????

Oh I almost forgot, MR. Jasper doesn't have any friends in Edinburgh to call upon. :lol:


A cheap shot about someone who is at least trying to do something about it.

Your problem, like the rest of the Scottish numpties is that you're so hooked on personalities you would ignore the real issues.

Now this post was made on this forum because it allows real debate without attracting the boo boys. You want to behave like a child then please do so on the child site. I'll even supply the link -

http://www.thetaxiforum.com/

Leave this forum for the big boys.

8)



Yer a bleathering idiot who has nothing better to do with his time. Nothing more than a wee sweetie wife. On one hand you claim to stick up for your fellow drivers rights and on the other you call us all Scottish numties. You couldn't give two ***** about drivers rights, you only want to see your name in print. You want to be a somebody instead of the nobody that you are. Anyone who has the time to write over two hundred letters to a newspaper really needs to get a life. Yes the subject matter is a serious one but I'm sorry, coming from the likes of you how can we be expected not to giggle? :lol:


Once again another erudite response from BtK.

However I thank you for drawing my attention to something I said which may cause some confusion.

When I referred to "Scottish Numpties" I was of course referring only to the small band of thickwits masquerading as taxi drivers on the Taxi Forum, the former Fasties.

I was not referring to Scottish cabbies in general who are by and large simply guys and gals going about their business in trying economic circumstances and most of whom, like me, would deprecate the childish meanderings of posters like BtK.

_________________
Skull, "You are a police inspector, aren't you?"
Cab Inspector Smith, "Yes."
Skull, "So, are you going to tell Mr Taylor what his rights are?"
Smith, "And ... What rights?"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:58 pm
Posts: 2665
Here's the official response to the letter to the Chief Constable from Inspector Lyle.

On Tuesday 14 July, 2009, I contacted Neil Allan, Procurator Fiscal, and made him aware of the incident you refer to in your letter to the Chief Constable.

He stated that the police officer was correct in his assessment of the situation as a civil matter.

It is the opinion of Mr Allan that, as the passenger had the means to pay the fare, criminal intent could not be proved by the police.


Having cash on him protects the thief by assigning him automatic intent to pay.

Which presumably means that a shoplifter with cash on him is also entitled to the same defence.

Except he's not. When he walks out of the shop having not paid, he has committed a criminal offence, and is usually charged accordingly.

How is it that the same does not apply in the case of taxi drivers and refusniks?

My assertion always was that when he walked away from the car having not paid, and in the full knowledge through the request of both the officer and the driver to do so, intent not to pay was established. He has committed a criminal offence having demonstrated both Actus Reus and Mens Rea as required for a formal charge of theft to be made.

What the Fiscal is saying is that intent is determined at a fixed point. Once fixed it can't be changed. For example a shoplifter could claim that although he took the item, his intent when he went into the store was to pay for it, he is entitled to his claim that he didn't fulfill the test for Mens Rea and that he shouldn't be charged with the criminal offence of shoplifting.

Isn't the reality that a shoplifter has been deemed to have stolen when he has gone beyond the point he is expected to pay for the goods i.e. when he left the store without paying. It's once outside the store that the offence is committed.

This is why the English Statute is written in this way, but even in Common Law in Scotland the same principle is established with shoplifting. It sets the precedent and is effectively the template for how this offence should have been proceeded with.

The Police and the Fiscal are getting this wrong, even under the existing Law.

Perhaps the interesting thing is that the Fiscal maintains that the fact he had money at the outset demonstrates a lack of intent to commit the crime, yet the officer didn't establish whether he had any cash on him until AFTER he had rushed to his judgement that it was a civil matter.

Doesn't it seem that this Police officer, and I guess others too, would view it as a civil matter in any case no matter what the specific circumstances are?

Doesn't this mean that the Law and the Police in matters like this are programmed to protect the perpetrator and not the victim?


:?

_________________
Skull, "You are a police inspector, aren't you?"
Cab Inspector Smith, "Yes."
Skull, "So, are you going to tell Mr Taylor what his rights are?"
Smith, "And ... What rights?"


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 317 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group