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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:17 pm 
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swannee wrote:

Oh and btw, you are wrong about SUD information too!! Your earlier statement should read:-

"Each application is supposed to be determined individually and refusals on SUD grounds must be made with information available at the time the application falls due to be considered. NOT "at the time of application" as you state.

Once again you are caught out with your twisted claims and lies.


Better check again swanee.
He didn't say that - I did.
He corrected my mistake. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:47 pm 
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Caledonian Cabbie wrote:
swannee wrote:
65. Taxi drivers need a good working knowledge of the area for which they are licensed, because taxis can be hired immediately, directly with the driver, at ranks or on the street. Many licensing authorities require prospective taxi-drivers to pass a test of local topographical knowledge as a condition of first grant of a licence. Mandatory testing of topographical knowledge is best practice although the stringency of the test should reflect the complexity or otherwise of the local geography, on the principle of ensuring that barriers to entry are not unnecessarily high."

So now, where do you stand with regard to tightening quality controls to restrict driver entry? The guidance here is quite clear as opposed to the sections which cover quantity controls which make no recommendation at all.



Well it does say that mandatory testing of topo knowledge is best practice, but it doesn't say quite say that about restricted numbers.

But clearly the ethos of the BPG is about balancing the stringency of licensing requirements with the public interest, and it's self-evident that topo tests are in the public interest, but clearly not to the point that the "barrier to entry" does not benefit the public and acts only to overregulate the trade.

Thus how does restricted numbers stand as regards benefiting the public, particularly as compared to the self-evident benefit to taxi licence holders?

And I'm glad you highlighted the phrase "barriers to entry not being unnecessarily high".

So if the average barrier to entry for a taxi proprietor in Ednburgh is £10k for a vehicle and £40k for a plate, doesn't this demonstrate that barriers to entry are unnecessarily high?

And to repeat an earlier point, if this BPG is as irrelevant as is being made out by some then why bother disputing its application to restricted numbers?

Does your post mean you do think it is relevant, swannee?


Correct it does recommend mandatory testing of drivers but makes NO recommendation as to best practice for restricted numbers. Local councils are best placed to judge whether restricted numbers benefits the public by allowing for a better all-round service with high standards or whether these can be achieved without restriction. Any benefit to licence holders is incidental to this, contrary to what is often stated.

The average barrier to entry for the Edinburgh trade is no more than the cost of achieving a taxi drivers licence. Holding a taxi operator's licence is not necessary in order to work in the trade.

It is a guidance document to clarify many points which some seemed to cloud unnecessarily. No more, no less.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:31 pm 
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swannee wrote:
Correct it does recommend mandatory testing of drivers but makes NO recommendation as to best practice for restricted numbers.


Is there an echo in here :lol:

Yes, that's what I said, but that's hardly the end of the matter, either in relation to the BPG or policy-making generally.

swannee wrote:
Local councils are best placed to judge whether restricted numbers benefits the public by allowing for a better all-round service with high standards or whether these can be achieved without restriction.


What standards do you mean? Topographical knowledge? Wheelchair accessability? The dress code?

What on earth do they have to do with restricted numbers?

swannee wrote:
Any benefit to licence holders is incidental to this, contrary to what is often stated.


You mean it's an unintended consequence? Indeed, since many councillors don't have the slightest clue about what's going on then I'm inclined to agree with you, but just because it's an unintended consequence doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered. Indeed, all the more reason that the facts should be made known, don't you think?

swannee wrote:
The average barrier to entry for the Edinburgh trade is no more than the cost of achieving a taxi drivers licence. Holding a taxi operator's licence is not necessary in order to work in the trade.


But if you don't buy then you rent, and the inflated rentals still represent a barrier to entry.

Take this from the relevant Wikipedia page:

Wikipedia wrote:
In economics and mostly especially in the theory of competition, barriers to entry are obstacles in the path of a firm that make it difficult to enter a given market.

Barriers to entry are the source of a firm's pricing power - the ability of a firm to raise prices without losing all its customers.

The term refers to hindrances that an individual may face while trying to gain entrance into a profession or trade.



swannee wrote:
It is a guidance document to clarify many points which some seemed to cloud unnecessarily. No more, no less


Indeed, and I've said as much several times. However, it's still relevant to the decision-making process, not to mention numerous other factors.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:49 am 
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You really are becoming boring now.

Your basic problem is that you seem to put more emphasis on the few paras outlining the purpose of the BPG than you do on the specifics which detail basically what is either considered best practice or what is required to justify a policy or requirement.

Just because some see the taxi trade as an easy source of income does not mean that it is. The high standards in Edinburgh are achieved at a cost. A cost to owners who, in many cases, rely on rental income from a driver to help with running costs. Is it best practice that more money leaves the trade to line the pockets of garages, taxi sellers, insurance companies, the council et al or is it best practice to retain that money within the trade in the form of rental payments?

It is only the opinion of a few vociferous fools that rentals are inflated; most drivers pay a reasonable amount and certainly a figure less than it would cost them to run their own taxi.

Too many taxis means longer hours for less money. Earnings rates drop. Think of the reduction in safety standards as everyone skimps on maintenance or how about all the drivers still out looking for that extra tenner they desperately need to put food on the table, when they are dog tired from working long hours constantly.

As for plate premiums being incidental or an unintended consequence, they are just that. Surely any business has a "goodwill" element? Why should taxis not?

Feel free to disagree but please stop misquoting from the said BPG and read every section and perhaps you might realise restriction is necessary for some areas and perhaps not for others. The trade, the licensing authority and those groups with whom they discuss matters are best placed to make that decision on an informed basis rather than on a speculative one as is too often the case.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:10 am 
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swannee wrote:
You really are becoming boring now.


Nice to hear from you again as well.

Quote:
Your basic problem is that you seem to put more emphasis on the few paras outlining the purpose of the BPG than you do on the specifics which detail basically what is either considered best practice or what is required to justify a policy or requirement.


But since the BPG doesn't specifically mention the downside of plate premiums it's necessary to use the more general stuff in the BPG relating to onerous licensing requirements and the like.

Quote:
Just because some see the taxi trade as an easy source of income does not mean that it is. The high standards in Edinburgh are achieved at a cost. A cost to owners who, in many cases, rely on rental income from a driver to help with running costs. Is it best practice that more money leaves the trade to line the pockets of garages, taxi sellers, insurance companies, the council et al or is it best practice to retain that money within the trade in the form of rental payments?


Problem with your analysis is that if the benefit of restricted numbers merely went towards higher standards then plates wouldn't attract a premium.

Quote:
It is only the opinion of a few vociferous fools that rentals are inflated; most drivers pay a reasonable amount and certainly a figure less than it would cost them to run their own taxi.


So why would someone pay £50k to run a taxi that they won't even drive?

Quote:
Too many taxis means longer hours for less money. Earnings rates drop. Think of the reduction in safety standards as everyone skimps on maintenance or how about all the drivers still out looking for that extra tenner they desperately need to put food on the table, when they are dog tired from working long hours constantly.


And the chap from York put the other side yesterday thus:

Quote:
These are hard times and some rentals have just had enough and feel that they themselves are being exploited. Those plate owners want their rent come rain or shine, sickness and health, 52 weeks a year, even if you just had to pay for a new clutch or gear box and have been unable to work, their hand is still held out for the rent !! Familly holidays are an extra £200 a week cos you still have rent to pay, if thats not greed then i dont know what is !!!


Quote:
As for plate premiums being incidental or an unintended consequence, they are just that. Surely any business has a "goodwill" element? Why should taxis not?


Who's saying taxis should not have a goodwill element? Problem is, derestriction wouldn't affect goodwill, so I don't know what your problem is. Of course, the plate premium would disappear with deresriction, ergo it isn't goodwill.

Quote:
Feel free to disagree but please stop misquoting from the said BPG and read every section and perhaps you might realise restriction is necessary for some areas and perhaps not for others.


Which part am I misquoting?

Why is restriction necessary in some areas but not others?

Quote:
The trade, the licensing authority and those groups with whom they discuss matters are best placed to make that decision on an informed basis rather than on a speculative one as is too often the case


Councillors, deciding on an informed basis? :lol:

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