Taxi Driver Online

Yes, the 'model' I was using was a simple one where more taxis means less PH and vice versa, and where the taxi number is fixed but PH numbers aren't.

However, as I said earlier, PH could in theory make inroad into the taxi sector for other reasons, but I suspect that the basic model is still the dominant one in Edinburgh.

The basic model is more likely to work in the likes of Dundee and Brighton, where taxis and PH are effectively the same, adhere to the same standards and charge the same fares, but of course PH are excluded from the streets.

However, where the two sectors are different and therefore more likely to compete with each other (rather than hybrid taxi/PH offices competing amongst themselves, as in Brighton), then PH could encroach into the taxi market and upset the basic numbers model.

For example, I think I've read on one of the forums that Edinburgh has seen quite hefty fare increases in recent years? If so, then if they are above what the market increase should be then clearly taxis will lose work and PH will gain, assuming the latter keep fares more aligned to the market. This would predominantly occur in the pre-booked market, but not exclusively, since the greater the price differential then the more inclined people will be to book a PH rather than hail a taxi in the street. And another consequence is that taxis may have to discount to compete.

Of course, you will no doubt know all this anyway (from what I've read on the Edinburgh sites), but I'm just trying to defend my numbers model

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

Yes, that's interesting, if the 'excess profits' are lower then plate premiums should be lower as well.

However, while you seem to be saying that an owner-driver singling his cab will be worse off than a few years ago, in terms of rentals the income is clearly greater, thus justifying the greater premiums. But it's an interesting thought, whether higher rentals are pushing up premiums or vice versa - above you are basically saying that both effects are evident.

As you allude, there may be a kind of financial bubble effect bidding the value of plates up, but of course this bubble could burst at some time in the future.

However, given that the Scottish Exect knocked the OFT back fairly emphatically when it responded, this could also have boosted values.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

From my experience a large number of new PH owners are good folk that would rather own a PH vehicle, than buy a plate or rent a taxi.

Some of the new PH may also be drivers that have sold their plates but don't want to pay the sort of money that they have been paid for many years.

Thus they then go PH, or retire on the money.

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IDFIMH

St Andrews seems to be closer to Dundee than Edinburgh (on the map as well), since we hardly have any PH even though taxi numbers have nearly doubled since 1999l. There have been about 5 since then, but a couple of weeks ago an office that had run three or four for years finally gave up and yellow-plated them. Don't know why exactly, but times are hard just now, and since we have the Open next month it seems to make it quieter at other times. The biggest office had about 10 cars out last thursday night, and the radios were totally silent for an hour and a half. The next day one of the owners with that office had an advert in the paper for drivers, and said it was a busy office

So there are just a couple of PH left now these are run by the office owners. Theres no logic to running a PH here, but i think the reason is that the owners dont like to slum it on the ranks with us plebs

All kinds of work, it started off with the late night clubbers at the weekend it is now becoming a 24/7 exercise, business tourism etc. They do work inside Edinburgh also although only when the opportunity arises, and yes there is an enforcement problem, there is no enforcement.

I think there are a number of reasons, 5 years ago you hardly seen an out of town taxi now they are everywhere especially at weekends.

A number of factors that may have contributed to the situation, vehicles MPV’s in excess of seven seats making it more cost effective to travel, the expansion of the local area fleets making it harder to make a living locally without targeting the high profit fares into and out of the City.

A greater opportunity for higher profit while working longer hours than in the suburbs and the country. More aggressive marketing due to the taxi companies in the outlying areas being privately owned. In other words everything that is associated with a dripping steak.

Now you are getting the picture up here in Edinburgh TDO, in other words it is arse for elbow.


The higher rentals are pushing up the higher plate premiums due to the driver be being faced with the prospect of paying around £280 a week and in some cases even more for an indefinite period. The drivers are also under the illusion that you are going to cut your costs by buying into the trade. Then there is the pressure from the rising prices, it’s the, “if you don’t buy in now scenario” the price is going up. The process of auctioning license plates also creates the feeling of missed opportunity and failure if you can’t stump up the cash forcing a greater determination to put your head on the financial chopping block next time round.


The bubble effect is here alright, had things been allowed to continue. I think it would have burst in a few years when the effects of falling profits becomes undeniable although it may have limped along for long enough with the costs were being levied at the driver rentals


Some who have bought just recently are ready to put their head in the oven; while others see themselves as losing there retirement and the trade being plunged head long into recession like in Dundee.


The Scottish Exec did give a lot of people breathing space only to have their wind knocked out by the Dundee case.


Funnily enough our lawyer couldn’t understand why the drivers didn’t get together and challenge the council in court on a regular basis or even challenge legislation or the interpretation the council put on it. (Judicial Review etc.)

Why would you pay £40,000 for a plate when say 50 individuals could apply and pay £1000 each? The council could not challenge every action taken against them and would be unlikely to even go to court under the circumstances.

Interesting.

I'm not sure if this is a trend in other big cities or not, but since I work in a small town I'm not the one to judge.

I think the trend in 6-8 seaters is nationwide though, and since you are stuck with the 5 seat PBs then it's clearly impossible to compete on those terms.

There also seems to be a trend in the smaller towns towards individual drivers with mobile phones, and also offices that may have only worked until 1-2 am previously now relying on one or two drivers with mobile phones at later times, so they can then do pick ups when the clubs have closed in the big cities, whereas in the past they may have packed up by that time.

So instead of perhaps waiting a long time for a city cab when the clubs come out, they can now have one from out-of-town waiting and can maybe get all of them into one vehicle rather than two black cabs.

Also, what I was saying about the price differentials between the blacks and the PHs in Edinburgh will also apply to out-of-town cabs, where prices tend to be cheaper.

And the independents with mobile phones are especially competive, because they don't have to pay office rents but can still get custom by getting a few cheap cards printed out, handing out leaflets etc.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

Yes, and I'm sure you you know this from your own experience, but I think that most drivers like to keep their head down over the issue, since they fear victimisation, loss of job or whatever.

Also, a lot of drivers seem to think restricting numbers are benefitting them, they seem incapable of doing a few sums and work out how much the owner is making from their rentals.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

Yes, it comes down to “bottle” as it always does, but sometimes things just have to change. The trade has been standing still for a long time and as you well know nothing stands still for ever.

As for the math, I don’t think it is considered as a serious option, the owners aren’t making that much all they are doing is perpetuating the vicious circle for the fear of confronting the reality of what is going on. Whereas, the drivers want to believe that there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

It is a classic case of wanting to believe in the illusion as apposed to confronting the reality of the situation.

It’s the “grass must be greener on the other side” scenario?

I hate to use old clichés but this is the only language the Dinosaurs in Edinburgh would understand.

There are two ways of dealing with councils such as yours, and I'm not sure which one is the better of the two in your case.

The first is the all guns blazing, rucks in the press etc etc. That can work, but if it doesn't then things get a lot worse.

The second is the nicely nicely way, and good councils should respond positively. But poxy councils respond in a way that puts drivers down.

The sad thing is that iffy councils will always have a pop at one man driver, but they are s*** scared of having a pop at the firms because they know the firms have the money to fight back.

The answer should be to join a national union/association, but the ones we have in this trade aren't much better than the iffy councils.

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IDFIMH

I know which one is more fun Sussex, it may sound very gun ho but at the end of the day I am not kissing the Council on the arse, there is plenty out there who will however and they don’t need anyone else.

I understand the arguments all to well, it gets to a point where you have just got use what is available at the time and this time is now.

Sometimes the only way to win is to try and circumvent the whole process by taking the fight to them. You write your own terms, and what I have seen so far from the Council up here does not impress me.

Everyone would do well to remember, what are seated across from you at the Council meeting are the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker.

They are not that clever but they are unscrupulous, it’s about power and control and what frightens those more than anything else is damage to their reputation first and foremost. Secondly their credibility and thirdly their ability to continue in the position they hold or the position they aspire to after making a total ass of themselves.


Faced with the ridicule of their peers and the public creates a feeding frenzy, just imagine if we win the Court case for the Licence plates how humiliating it is going to be. One month I am on suspension the next my colleagues and I are going to collect our licence plates, and just because we had he audacity to challenge the system.


It has got to be worth a shot for that reason alone.

I fully agree, and no-one can point the apathy stick at you. Which in this trade is high praise.

I suppose the only thing I would do is to try and split the parties. But if they are all braindead and rely too much on LOs, then that can be pointless.

I think I would also send a regular stream of letters to the local rag, not under my name, but putting the points I want across.

From experience I think councillors hate people having a pop at them in the local press, and if it can be done without redress to the driver, then that can't be too bad.

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IDFIMH

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Sirius, you sound like an aspiring councillor or is it the voice of reason or perhaps the voice of apathy.

It is easy to have an opinion on everything a belief in nothing a commitment to no one, and to do nothing about anything and then attack those who do.

Shame on you Sirius!


You are exactly the problem we have up hear in Edinburgh.

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