Taxi Driver Online

UK cab trade debate and advice
It is currently Sat May 10, 2025 10:30 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 124 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37338
Location: Wayneistan
Quote:
That's not very 'councils know best', is it?


No its CC knows better :wink:

CC

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37338
Location: Wayneistan
If it is accepted that as effectively a HC has never had the requirement to have a PH Operators license.

And it is accepted that at some point prior to 1976 hackney carriages did pre booked work and was therefore an operator.

Then surely the case is that a hackney carriage when accepting a booking must be situated within its own licensed district?

CC

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm
Posts: 10381
captain cab wrote:
And it is accepted that at some point prior to 1976 hackney carriages did pre booked work and was therefore an operator.


The word operator wasn't introduced until the 1976 act. So before that act came into being the only relevant act was the 1847 act which has no mention of operators. The simple fact that the 1847 act is specific in what it deems as plying for hire and what the law deems as plying for hire is completely contrary to your observation in this post. The 1847 act relates to standing in a street and plying for hire it has nothing to do with pre booked work whether it be by telephone or any other means. The simple fact is that the reason why the 1976 act was introduced is because there was no law preventing anyone from setting up a taxi business and using any type of vehicle from anywhere in the country to undertake a hire?

So with all due respect to yourself captain if we turn back the clock to before 1976 what law would you invoke that would criminalise the activity of pre booked Taxi work?

Quote:
Then surely the case is that a hackney carriage when accepting a booking must be situated within its own licensed district?


Answered and judged.

Regards

JD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37338
Location: Wayneistan
DPP v Computer Cab Ltd and others (1994)?

CC

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm
Posts: 10381
captain cab wrote:
DPP v Computer Cab Ltd and others (1994)?

CC


That was a failed prosecution and if that is the only argument you can put forward in your defence then your assumption has failed.

Tell me, why do you think there were no prosecutions brought against private vehicles working radio circuits before private hire legislation was introduced in 1976? Then tell me why there were never any prosecutions brought against mini cab operators in London for the same thing?

The reason being is because plying for hire is defined as "standing in a street" and one of the main legal definitions of that is Hunt v Morgan 1949. Which no doubt you have read courtesy of TDO.

I must admit it feels comfortable being back in the days before private hire legislation was introduced because it concentrates our minds on the differences between hackney carriage and Private hire legislation.

Regards

JD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37338
Location: Wayneistan
Quote:
That was a failed prosecution and if that is the only argument you can put forward in your defence then your assumption has failed.


Have you a copy of the case you could post please JD?

CC

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm
Posts: 10381
captain cab wrote:
Quote:
That was a failed prosecution and if that is the only argument you can put forward in your defence then your assumption has failed.


Have you a copy of the case you could post please JD?

CC


The case is already on here.

Regards

JD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37338
Location: Wayneistan
Why did the prosecution fail JD?

and given me your view on the outcome

CC

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37338
Location: Wayneistan
http://taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtop ... mputer+cab

found it

CC

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm
Posts: 10381
captain cab wrote:
Have you a copy of the case you could post please JD?


I'm curious as to why you referred to that particular case if you hadn't read it?

Regards

JD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37338
Location: Wayneistan
Quote:
I'm curious as to why you referred to that particular case if you hadn't read it?

Regards

JD



I heard the case mooted yesterday and wondered.

regards

CC

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37338
Location: Wayneistan
In my judgment, once the position is reached where nothing further remains to be agreed between the driver and the customer within the unlicensed area, the conclusion is inescapable that the hiring took place in the area where these defendants were licensed. The inevitable consequence of that, as it seems to me, is that the cabs in the instant case were not permitted to be hired in the licensed area. The hiring had already taken place. It follows that the answer to the first question posed by the Stipendiary Magistrate, namely:

"Whether, notwithstanding any prior booking arrangement or hiring agreement, the licensed cab driver for the purposes of Paragraph 31 of the London Cab Order 1934 permits his cab to be hired at the time and place at which he physically picks "up the hirer?"

is "No"; and, as to the second question, namely:

"Was I correct in law, on the agreed facts, in dismissing the informations?"

the answer is "Yes". Of course the offences in the informations laid in relation to aiding and abetting against the first Respondents must, of course, fail with the informations laid against the other Respondents.


So the drivers in this case were found innocent because they accepted the pre booking whilst they were still in their licensed area.

In effect as soon as they accepted the job they were 'hired'

CC

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm
Posts: 10381
captain cab wrote:
In my judgment, once the position is reached where nothing further remains to be agreed between the driver and the customer within the unlicensed area, the conclusion is inescapable that the hiring took place in the area where these defendants were licensed. The inevitable consequence of that, as it seems to me, is that the cabs in the instant case were not permitted to be hired in the licensed area. The hiring had already taken place. It follows that the answer to the first question posed by the Stipendiary Magistrate, namely:

"Whether, notwithstanding any prior booking arrangement or hiring agreement, the licensed cab driver for the purposes of Paragraph 31 of the London Cab Order 1934 permits his cab to be hired at the time and place at which he physically picks "up the hirer?"

is "No"; and, as to the second question, namely:

"Was I correct in law, on the agreed facts, in dismissing the informations?"

the answer is "Yes". Of course the offences in the informations laid in relation to aiding and abetting against the first Respondents must, of course, fail with the informations laid against the other Respondents.


So the drivers in this case were found innocent because they accepted the pre booking whilst they were still in their licensed area.

In effect as soon as they accepted the job they were 'hired'

CC


Well, what else do you glean from the case? What about the person taking the booking?

I think we should take one point at a time, You no doubt realise that you don't need a license to take bookings for a hackney carriage, and this case points out you can use a licensed driver in any authority even though you yourself or the hirer are not in that authority.

So as an example, I could take a booking in area A and give it to a licensed hackney driver in area B or area C or D or whatever?

Now then, what if I took a booking in area A and gave it to a hackney driver licensed in area B but when he took the job he was in area C?

The circumstance in this case meant the judge only had to determine one situation and that was whether a person sat in his own licensed area could take a booking from an office situated in another area.

The judge didn't need to answer the question about the driver being licensed in the area where the hire was to take place because the driver was in his own area when he took the job.

All that this case proved and I might say that any simpleton could have deduced the same, was that the driver wasn't plying for hire in the area where the job was booked when he took the job in his own area. Those were the circumstances and the court couldn't rule or make up any other circumstances on information that wasn't before them?

If the driver had admitted being outside his own area and in the Green area when he took the job, then the judge would have had to make a decision based on that circumstance? He would also have had to address the legal definition of plying for hire, as against the legal definition of private hire?

You may also wonder why in all this time there has never been another case brought to test the legality of taking a booking while in the green zone when licensed in the Yellow zone? Or are we to assume that Yellow badge drivers are always in their own zone when they take a job in the Green zone?

Perhaps we can clear these points up first before we move on to the finer points?

Regards

JD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37338
Location: Wayneistan
I think what we can say from this is that the location of the taxi when accepting the booking determines the legality of the hire.

The judge basically stated the taxi was effectively hired once he accepted the pre booking in his own area, therefore the place of the pick up was not so important, as the driver could do no other fare until he had picked up the pre booking.

What is the implication?

Well I would suggest a hackney carriage can do a pre booking anywhere in the country, as long as when the pre booking is accepted, the hackney carriage is in its prescribed district.

regards

CC

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37338
Location: Wayneistan
Regarding the person accepting the original booking.

I foresee the National Bodies working together towards a solution, one idea has already been mooted and I am sure when the bodies meet during the New Year a policy will be forthcoming.

CC

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 124 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group