Taxi Driver Online

Re: Failure to display PHV door sign's- breach of vehicle conditions.

"It has been reported by one of our Transport inspectors that your vehicle was seen on .......................... at 11.40am on 22/12/06 without the PHV and warrington BC door sign's fitted.

The door sign's MUST be fitted with immediate effect.
NFA this time but further breaches may well lead to suspension/revocation of the Vehicle licence.

Now i'd love to write a nice letter back saying where to shove his letter (i wasnt working and havent been for 2 months, i'm doing some building work) But can I? The conditions dont say whether or not they have to be displayed when not working. And of course at the moment, with all the Pink Ladies kerfuffle i dont need them at all!!

Would i be within my rights to tell him where to shove his letter?

There is differing case law on this, i'm off out for the evening but I'll have a look for you tomorrow.

Regards

JD

hmmm, down here once it's a licenced vehilcle then its a licenced vehilce, you cant go taking the council stickers off just cos you not working that day.

One instant case that springs to mind is the Yorkshire driver who was prosecuted for not displaying an interior sign. I forget the name of the case or the exact details but I know he had finished work and was on his way home. He was found not guilty if my memory serves me well?

The case is most likely on here.

Regards

JD

But wasn't there a case recently (on here somewhere) where a driver got done for not wearing his taxi/PH badge (not sure which), even though he said he had taken it off to pray?

I think a licensed vehicle is always a licensed vehicle, and therefore must meet the current licensing conditions, even if not in use.

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IDFIMH

There are several cases relating to drivers not wearing their badge whilst working.

I think geoff is looking for a legitimate defence against an additional "condition" attached to his license and whether or not that condition applies while he is not working? Obviously the council can attached conditions to a license but occasionally they word the condition incorrectly which can sometimes leave a gaping whole in the objective they are trying to achieve?

The relevant section as we all know is section 48 which is contained in the 1976 act, it states in these terms.....

Section 48(2)

"A district council may attach to the grant of a licence under this section such conditions as they may consider reasonably necessary including, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provisions of this subsection, conditions requiring or prohibiting the display of signs on or from the vehicle to which the licence relates."

We need to see the wording of the condition before we can pass judgement on whether or not it relates to a private hire vehicle working or otherwise and whether or not the condition might be unreasonable in circumstances where the vehicle is not working?

We know a hackney carriage is always a hackney carriage and a private hire vehicle is always a private hire vehicle but conditions of license such as these are "additions" to statute law. Whereas statute law specifically defines the attributes of the legislation, such things as "additional conditions" are not defined and are subject to interpretation based on the wording of the condition and the general legality of whether or not the condition is lawfull?

The case I referred to earlier, is one such example of the wording of the condition rendering it impotent, when the vehicle is not working.

I said at the time of posting this particular case, that "This is a case everyone should read because it highlights the need to be aware of erroneous conditions laid down by some councils". Just to define what I meant by erroneous conditions, I was referring to the wording of the condition and not what the licensing authority hoped to achieve.

http://www.taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/vie ... php?t=4646

We need to see the Warrington condition in respect of door signs before we can take sides on this issue.

Regards

JD

your wish.......
The proprietor shall display on the front offside and nearside doors the name, address ans telephone number of the private hire operator accepting bookings for the private hire vehicle, togrther with the words "Private Hire Only". This provision does not apply to "Stretch Limousine" vehicles.

also

Both rear doors must display the "Warrington Borough Council" notice supplied. This notice must not be altered in any way without written permission of an authorised officer.

A copy of our licence conditions were attached with these two conditions highlited.

The first thing I noticed is that the wording does not state "At all times"

Which would then read

The proprietor shall display "AT ALL TIMES" on the front offside and near-side doors the name, address and telephone number of the private hire operator accepting bookings for the private hire vehicle, together with the words "Private Hire Only"

Or alternately

"AT ALL TIMES" The proprietor shall display on the front offside and nearside doors the name, address and telephone number of the private hire operator accepting bookings for the private hire vehicle, together with the words "Private Hire Only"

There will obviously be circumstances and times where it is impossible to display a sign relating to an operator, such as when your vehicle is first licensed or in the case where you no longer obtain work from the operator to which your existing signage relates. Therefore it is understandable that the words "at all times" might have been excluded in order to take account of the times when a vehicle might not be attached to an operator? A proprietor who is not attached to an operator cannot display a sign until such time he is attached to an operator?

We then have to ask ourselves is there anything to stop you driving the vehicle until such time you have allied yourself to an operator? The answer to that is "no". However, you should be minded that if you are attached to an operator even if you yourself act as the operator then the condition states that you must display the signage.

Whether or not the condition is reasonable is another argument altogether but that would be for a court of law to decide?

The other aspect of the condition is a little more difficult because there is no reason why you should not display the notice that states, "Private hire only" or that notice which the council supplied?

Even though you are not working or in between private hire operators for whatever reason the standard notices which I have mentioned above should, according to the condition of license be displayed on the vehicle. However, you might, and its a big "might", have reasonable excuse for not displaying those signs if you can convince the licensing department that the "private hire only" signage, was not being displayed because you were in between operators? Therefore the vehicle was not being used as a private hire vehicle and there is no reference in the condition that states "the signage is applicable at all times".

Regards

JD

If the car has an accident on one side, and after spraying needs a few days to set before a sticker/door sign can be attached, are drivers able to work?

That said I think a phone call from the LO would have been the nicest option, rather than a letter.

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IDFIMH

as the signs have to on for test they should stay on at all times unless youve got written permission to remove for a reason (eg doing a wedding) the only legal way to remove signs is to surrender youe plates to LA and get em back when youve finished what your doing. in st helens if your caught with no door signs you have to go to LA for them to inspect if you have 3 warnings your forced to put on permanent door signs but thats rare as there is a lot of enforcement so drivers dont take them off unless its at night time to stop them getting nicked. warrington has a big problem with drivers not have the door signs on when there working (might have somthing to do with the flagging around town there doing-really getting pi*** off with it seeing it to much )
the problem with warrington is there is very little enforcement so the drivers (hack and P/H) do what they want so when someone gets a little hassle there upset. the sooner we get proper enforcement the better for the job all round

There is no legal requirement under the 1976 act that states "in order to obtain a private hire vehicle license you first need an operators license". I know that section 48.2 allows for the imposition of signs but in my opinion such imposition would only apply when a proprietor has contracted to a private hire operator.

I would also suggest that any vehicle discontinuing a contract with a private hire operator is not bound to retain signage on a vehicle which relates to an operator he no longer has any connection with. If a proprietor decided to take a three month break from the business of private hire driver I would be interested to know under what law a council could remove his plates?

Regards

JD

And should a Private Hire Owner driver be required to REMOVE signage when a testing centre fails the vehicle and retains the plates until the vehicle is re-tested? I have seen a (now ex PH) vehicle being driven around with clearly no plates, but with door signs still in place. It has been reported, but no action has been taken.

What would be the legal position should a pirate decide to make up his own signs?

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Former taxi driver

A skull and crossbones style I would imagine

CC

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin

Do they have photographic proof ?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_around_the_world

No, the same enforcenent officer looked at my car 3 weeks ago because the sign's were off and he said it was ok because i wasnt working.
2 weeks later he reported me.
I NEVER work without my door sign's on.

This is typical of our LA, i once got a warning for driving down an "access only" short cut. It was reported by a member of the public who lives on the road, when i asked for the proof (photo) it was withdrawn.

btw Dinky, you know i dont flag, there's no need to, there's enough work and more for us to cope with at night.
But while we're on the subject, "cabcall" how do you accept a booking when your driving? would it be via your mobile by any chance? if so how do you write down the address? do you stop whil you write it down?