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gusmac
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:58 am 
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grandad wrote:
JD wrote:
The fact that VOSA and the police are incompetent when it comes to prosecuting unlicensed limousines that operate under bogus contracts is the only lifeline available for many in your industry.

Regards

JD


These are the very people who you will need on your side yet you say they are incompetent. That should help your crusade no end.
They allow this shady scheme to continue. That's incompetent.

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grandad
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:20 am 
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gusmac wrote:
grandad wrote:
JD wrote:
The fact that VOSA and the police are incompetent when it comes to prosecuting unlicensed limousines that operate under bogus contracts is the only lifeline available for many in your industry.

Regards

JD


These are the very people who you will need on your side yet you say they are incompetent. That should help your crusade no end.
They allow this shady scheme to continue. That's incompetent.


No, they accept that it is legal.

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gusmac
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:26 am 
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grandad wrote:
gusmac wrote:
grandad wrote:
JD wrote:
The fact that VOSA and the police are incompetent when it comes to prosecuting unlicensed limousines that operate under bogus contracts is the only lifeline available for many in your industry.

Regards

JD


These are the very people who you will need on your side yet you say they are incompetent. That should help your crusade no end.
They allow this shady scheme to continue. That's incompetent.


No, they accept that it is legal.
They accept only that they are not going to do a damned thing about it. That doesn't make it legal.

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grandad
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:36 am 
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gusmac wrote:
grandad wrote:
gusmac wrote:
grandad wrote:
JD wrote:
The fact that VOSA and the police are incompetent when it comes to prosecuting unlicensed limousines that operate under bogus contracts is the only lifeline available for many in your industry.

Regards

JD


These are the very people who you will need on your side yet you say they are incompetent. That should help your crusade no end.
They allow this shady scheme to continue. That's incompetent.


No, they accept that it is legal.
They accept only that they are not going to do a damned thing about it. That doesn't make it legal.


Have you actually asked VOSA for their opinion of the self drive system? I doubt it. Some one from here apparently did the other day and did not get the answer that they wanted.

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JD
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:43 am 
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grandad wrote:
JD wrote:
The fact that VOSA and the police are incompetent when it comes to prosecuting unlicensed limousines that operate under bogus contracts is the only lifeline available for many in your industry.

Regards

JD


These are the very people who you will need on your side yet you say they are incompetent. That should help your crusade no end.


If they are incompetent they are not much use to anyone? Better they be exposed for their incompetence rather than have it perpetuated indefinitely.

These people have had years to get their act together yet they flounder in a sea of incompetence. This proves to me that they know very little about the concept of hire or reward, or if they do, then they are turning a blind eye to those operating outside the law.

Perhaps vehicles caught operating without a PSV or private hire license should be instantly impounded until such time they can produce evidence that they were operating legally. That might concentrate a few minds.

Regards

JD

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JD
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:15 am 
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grandad wrote:
Have you actually asked VOSA for their opinion of the self drive system? I doubt it. Some one from here apparently did the other day and did not get the answer that they wanted.


Well you keep saying someone on here asked the other day but you don't say who and you haven't publish the response given by the person from VOSA. You also haven't give any indication who this VOSA person is? Therefore we must conclude that the story is a fabrication until such time you can supply the facts.

Thats reasonable isn't it?

We have no way of knowing the competence of this person or if they have ever seen one of these secretive self drive hire contracts? We also have no way of knowing under what circumstance he or she might judge this operation illegal? Assuming of course that he or she holds an opinion on what activity constitutes an illegality, considering that according to you they hold the opinion that the activity is legal?

I have already set out the circumstances where the operation would be legal and there is no doubt about that but I suggest these operators don't operate to those guidelines therefore in my opinion they are operating outside the law.

Perhaps our friend from VOSA would like to write to TDO and explain their logic in consideration that the bottom line is the safety and well being of the public to travel in vehicles that are suitable and regulated for the carrying of passengers. Or perhaps this mythical person doesn't realise that all vehicles that carry passengers for hire or reward have to be licensed or exempted from being licensed? Fortunately unlicensed self drive hire vehicles for hire or reward don't remotely fit into the category of public service vehicles.

Regards

JD

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Sussex
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:56 am 
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grandad wrote:
No, they accept that it is legal.

Where and when have they put that in writing? :?

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S6 Conversion specialist.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:58 am 
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JD wrote:
S6 Conversion specialist. wrote:
I respect your knowledge of the regulations and laws within the Taxi/PH trade , but i seriously think that for you to suddenly step outside this little world your in and move into something which you have very little knowledge or facts of previous legal goings on would be foolish to say the least.


My little world as you put it, does not revolve around limos, however part of it does centre on the illegal activity of "hire or reward" and in case you hadn't noticed that is the law under which we all operate?

I know there are many in the limo industry who can't find a legal home in which to operate legitimate hire or reward and who therefore have to rely on contracts that probably wouldn't hold water in a court of law. However, having never seen one of these contracts I may very well be mistaken but I doubt it.

To suggest I am out of my depth when it comes to hire or reward is preposterous and I suggest it is the limo industry who fail to understand the concept of "hire or reward". The fact that VOSA and the police are incompetent when it comes to prosecuting unlicensed limousines that operate under bogus contracts is the only lifeline available for many in your industry.

It would appear that many limo operators seem to think they have a given right to operate hire or reward without a license just because they are a luxury conveyance. The fact of the matter is that those operating under what is commonly known as schedule six conversations are classed as a minibus. We wouldn't condone a minibus operating without a PSV license and therefore we don't condone a limo dressed up as a minibus operating without a license.

I doubt you can point me to any self drive hire minibus operation in the UK that operates in the same way as some of your colleagues.

In respect of legislation, it can't come quick enough for me but I suspect even then it won't be a size that fits all.

Regards

JD



Hmmm , what about section 19 then ?
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grandad
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:17 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
grandad wrote:
No, they accept that it is legal.

Where and when have they put that in writing? :?


Where and when have they put it in writing or even stated that it is illegal?

Give them a ring yourself.

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Sussex
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:21 pm 
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grandad wrote:
Where and when have they put it in writing or even stated that it is illegal?

Give them a ring yourself.

You stated it was legal, I know, confirmed by case law, it's not.

They have either said it's legal or they haven't, so if they have said it's legal then let's see it in writing.

Please?

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grandad
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:24 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
grandad wrote:
Where and when have they put it in writing or even stated that it is illegal?

Give them a ring yourself.

You stated it was legal, I know, confirmed by case law, it's not.

They have either said it's legal or they haven't, so if they have said it's legal then let's see it in writing.

Please?


We already accept that it is legal. Why do we have to do all the chasing for you. You are perfectly capable of doing this for yourself.

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Sussex
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:44 pm 
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grandad wrote:
We already accept that it is legal.

On what grounds, other than no-one has been charged yet?

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JD
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:58 pm 
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S6 Conversion specialist. wrote:
Hmmm , what about section 19 then ?


Well what about it? You won't get any relief from section 19. Well certainly not the section 19 that I'm thinking of.

Regards

JD

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JD
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:35 pm 
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grandad wrote:
We already accept that it is legal.


We have a long list of councils who thought the same as you, until a judge told them different.

They were misguided too.

I was wondering if you or any of your colleagues in the limo trade especially Mr S6 have ever read the the case of Albert V MIB?

Regards

JD

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grandad
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:38 pm 
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JD wrote:
grandad wrote:
We already accept that it is legal.


We have a long list of councils who thought the same as you, until a judge told them different.

They were misguided too.

I was wondering if you or any of your colleagues in the limo trade especially Mr S6 have ever read the the case of Albert V MIB?

Regards

JD


Didn't we debate that case recently. As I remember it bore no resemblance whatsoever to the system being used by the self drive hire.

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