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For the benefit of all PSV operators and those operating hire or reward outside the law.
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Meaning of "local service"

2 Local services

(1) In this Act “local service” means a service, using one or more public service vehicles, for the carriage of passengers by road at separate fares other than one—

(a) which is excluded by subsection (4) below; or

(b) in relation to which (except in an emergency) one or both of the conditions mentioned in subsection (2) below are met with respect to every passenger using the service.

(2) The conditions are that—

(a) the place where he is set down is fifteen miles or more, measured in a straight line, from the place where he was taken up;

(b) some point on the route between those places is fifteen miles or more, measured in a straight line, from either of those places.

(3) Where a service consists of one or more parts with respect to which one or both of the conditions are met, and one or more parts with respect to which neither of them is met, each of those parts shall be treated as a separate service for the purposes of subsection (1) above.

(4) A service shall not be regarded for the purposes of this Act as a local service if—

(a) the conditions set out in Part III of Schedule 1 to the 1981 Act (trips organised privately by persons acting independently of vehicle operators, etc.) are met in respect of each journey made by the vehicles used in providing the service:

And here is part III

Part III Alternative Conditions Affecting Status or Classification

(4) A service shall not be regarded for the purposes of this Act as a local service if—

**5 Arrangements for the bringing together of all the passengers for the purpose of making the journey must have been made otherwise than by, or by a person acting on behalf of

(a) “the holder of the PSV operator's licence under which the vehicle is to be used, if such a licence is in force”.

(b) “the driver or the owner of the vehicle or any person who has made the vehicle available under any arrangement, if no such licence is in force,”

“and otherwise than by any person who receives any remuneration in respect of the arrangements”.

“6 The journey must be made without previous advertisement to the public of the arrangements therefore”.

7 “All passengers must, in the case of a journey to a particular destination, be carried to, or to the vicinity of, that destination, or, in the case of a tour, be carried for the greater part of the journey”.

8 “No differentiation of fares for the journey on the basis of distance or of time must be made”. **

(b) Or every vehicle used in providing the service is so used under a permit granted under section 19 of this Act.

(5) Subsections (5)(b), (c) and (6) of section 1 of the 1981 Act (meaning of “fares”) shall apply for the purposes of this section.
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Copyright notice © The contents of this post are copyright of JD and are not to be reproduced outside of TDO without written permission.

JD I do know the rules regarding separate fares, after 35 years in the PSV I fully understand them. I was trying to see what Sussex "thought" separate might be as there is an obvious misconception that separate fares means bus fares i.e. 50p or £1.50 etc. It does not mean that.

In answer to your question about licensing, we hold a Standard International licence and therefore operate our 8 seaters under the "big bus" exemption.
We have previuosly operated under the seven day contract (properly by sending out a vehicle for six days to the same customer (one day off in the middle) doing a variety of pre-booked work.

So how do I work out my price for a job, here is just the BASIC priciple, there are always other things to consider like bank hols etc..

1 How much do I want for the job based on hours of work size of vehicle required etc(and the timings i.e. does it fit in with other work or is at 03:00hrs etc) Method A:
2 What is the distance I will be travelling B.
3 Is there any waiting time (i.e. theatre trip) C.
4 Can I be bothered with it D
5 number of people travelling (or if a day excursion a guestimate of how many we may get.) E.

Equation=
A+B+C+D divided by E

So trip to the airport for four people

A=£30+B=£10+C=£0+D=£0 = £40 divide by 4 = £10 each, not a local service must be booked and paid for in advance, if on the day they want to travel only two now want to go the price is still £40 based on the fact, that is we we agreed by contract and we may have turned other work away based on their booking.

Trip for eight passengers at 03:00 hrs (larger vehicle)
A=£60+B=£10+C=£0+D£10 (early morning)= £80 divide by 8 = £10 each


Want to run a day excursion to York with a coach.

A=£225+B=£75+C£0 (included in A)+D£0 = £300 divide by 30 (minimum passengers)= £10 each, if we get 45 or 50 on board very good profit made.

A section from CPC guidance notes.
Separate Fares

Separate fares cover payments made by individual passengers. These payments may be made direct to the operator,to a travel agent or to any other person or body other than the operator. Such payment may be part of another larger sum, including part cost of an all inclusive holiday tour,or shared cost of a social outing.

If a group wishes to hire a vehicle from an operator on a lump sum basis and then shares the cost amongst the users by charging individual fares,separate fares exist, even though they are not made to the operator.

This is custom and practice within the PSV trade and is accepted as a working principal. It can be found in most text books etc when studying for the CPC operators course.

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you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

But surely then if you price a limo or a hummer for a six person ride, yet 8 folks turn up, then you must charge the extra two 1/6th more each.

If the law is to be adhered too.

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IDFIMH

Does the law require the separate fares to be equal?

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http://wingsoverscotland.com/ http://www.newsnetscotland.com/

Unlike a taxi, the price is agreed and usually paid for in advance, it would then be at the discretion of the operator or driver what would happen if 8 turned up instead of six but this I would hope would be dealt with under company policy.
If the driver was in a situation where he felt in danger if he did not allow an extra two to travel, who could blame him for taking them?.

Sussex, if someone asked you to take 3 people in your taxi to Manchester, may I assume this would not be on the meter but at an agreed rate?. If four or only two turned up to travel would your price still be the same?.
Therefore the price quoted is usually for the full amount of punters you can carry divided by the number who actually want to travel. We are not talking about a registered local service in these examples.

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you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

That's a good question, in theory yes.

But you can have any type of fare scheme you like as there is no laid down fare table. For example, you can accept period tickets, returns, monthly tickets, family tickets or one man over 75 accompanied by both parents can travel free if you wish. It is entirely up to you

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you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

Well to me that makes it a PH as the car is being booked as a whole, not as seperate parts.

That was the whole point of the 2000 Transport Act amendment.

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IDFIMH

A while ago I went with my mate to a limo meeting in Wakefield.

Without wishing to elaborate on personalities, the general advice to limo operators was to ignore local councils, licence with vosa, ignore the 15 mile rule (cos it's hard to enforce)! if a Trading Standards officer from the council asks for info then tell him (not her) they have no authority as you are licenced by vosa!

The police have no idea, vosa have no idea! enforcement is done by Blackpool Donkys.

Even if the local council license limos, avoid it!

I thought it was quite amusing, but everyone was taking it seriously, lots of nodding, a bit like donkys.

Also I know what donkys get for dinner.........1/2 an hour!

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Talking, talking, happy talk!

I don't know what meeting you went to be I have never been to a meeting of the NLA (NLcA) where there have been any nodding donkeys. They have always been very robust events with challenges thrown up at every topic. As far as I can remember whenever licensing has been discussed The general consensus was that if your LA will license you, you should go with them. There has only been one man who has been saying that you can't be forced to license and you can persue the VOSA route, and this route will still be an option after the January deadline and this is the NLcA's legislation officer Mr Bill Bowling. He can be contacted through the NLcA website and I am sure he will be only to happy to answer any questions you may have.

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Grandad,

As a matter of interest T, how many big buses and 8 seaters do you operate?

Regards

JD

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Copyright notice © The contents of this post are copyright of JD and are not to be reproduced outside of TDO without written permission.

I may as well get to the point.

I assume that if you run small buses under section 79A exemption, then you operate at least ten big buses? This will allow you to run one small bus which equates to ten percent of the larger operation.

If you don't have ten big buses then you can't legally run any small buses. That is the understanding I obtained from VOSA when I investigated this crazy clause, (from the Taxi trades point of view), some three years ago.

If anyone is unsure how small buses operate under section 79A the DfT website will inform you.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/buse ... ces?page=4

Regards

JD

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Copyright notice © The contents of this post are copyright of JD and are not to be reproduced outside of TDO without written permission.

Section 79A now reads.

[79A Small PSVs subject to regulation as private hire vehicles]

[[(1) If a small bus is being provided for hire with the services of a driver for the purpose of carrying passengers otherwise than at separate fares, it is not to be regarded as a public service vehicle for the purpose of—

(a) Part II of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, or

(b) any local Act applying in any area in England and Wales which regulates the use of private hire vehicles provided for hire with the services of a driver for the purpose of carrying passengers and excludes public service vehicles from the scope of that regulation.

(2) If a small bus is being made available with a driver to the public for hire for the purpose of carrying passengers otherwise than at separate fares, it is not to be regarded as a public service vehicle for the purpose of the Private Hire Vehicles (London) Act 1998.

(3) But subsection (1) or (2) does not apply where the vehicle is being so provided or made available in the course of a business of carrying passengers by motor vehicles all but a small part of which involves the operation of large buses.

(4) In this section—

“small bus” means a public service vehicle within paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of section 1 of this Act; and]
“large buses” means public service vehicles within paragraph (a) of that subsection.]

1 Definition of “public service vehicle”

(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, in this Act “public service vehicle” means a motor vehicle (other than a tramcar) which—

(a) (Large Bus for the purpose of section 79A). being a vehicle adapted to carry more than eight passengers, is used for carrying passengers for hire or reward; or

(b) (Small Bus for the purpose of section 79A). being a vehicle not so adapted, is used for carrying passengers for hire or reward at separate fares in the course of a business of carrying passengers.

NOTES

Extent

This section does not extend to Scotland: see the Transport Act 2000, s 265.

Amendment

Inserted, in relation to England and Wales, by the Transport Act 2000, s 265(2).

Date in force: 1 July 2001: see SI 2001/1498, art 3.
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8. 'Big bus' operators - ie those operating PSV vehicles with more than 8 passenger seats -can also run small vehicles (with 8 or fewer passenger seats) licensed as PSVs for some private hire work, provided the operation of such vehicles represents a 'small part' of their overall business. This would allow, for example, a big bus operator to use a few saloon cars or people carriers for private hire work, in response to passenger demand. In these circumstances, no PHV licence is required.

I take it that this is the part of the regulations that you are refering to.

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Grandad,

I think most of the abuse of the limo and hummer folks, of PSV regs, usually comes via the restricted PSV license.

There they can use any vehicle as long as it has an orange/brown disc in the window.

As course the wording of the PSV act allowed the Brighton tuk tuks to run a 100% fleet of small PSV licensed vehicles on a national PSV license.

In other words we have a dodgy system being used by a dodgy set of loop-hole hunters. A perfect marriage.

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IDFIMH

Is it not self explanatory?

If its confusing then I'll make it simpler but it looked perfectly fool proof to me.

Regards

JD

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Copyright notice © The contents of this post are copyright of JD and are not to be reproduced outside of TDO without written permission.